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  1. #21
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Well, I don't wanna get too involved in talking about that particular woman, cos she's really just an example of similar experiences I seem to have with other INFJ's, but not just that type - in fact most non-NT types
    ...Maybe you should try describing your interaction with a less dysfunctional example of a non-NT than your INFJ friend?

  2. #22
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    My mom's boyfriend is either an ENFP or ENTP. I am inclined to think he's an ENTP because he can be insensitive and selfish at times.

    Regardless, his dominant Ne function is obvious. He comes up with crazy off-the-wall ideas that are really creative but gives little thought as to whether or not they're workable.

    But that's exactly why I like him. He had this idea for building a water slide going down out of the bathroom window on the second floor. I thought it was cool, even though there are certain legal and practical considerations to take into consideration.

    But it does seem that ENTPs are the quirkiest of all the types.

  3. #23
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    ENTPs dont come across to me as particularly aggressive or intimidating, but I notice in my ENTP friend that he often says hurtful or offensive things to people for the sake of beeing funny, he seems to see it just as playful teasing, but some things he says are actually very hurtful, I imagine especially to F people.
    Oh hello stranger! lol

    Yeah, I used to be like that a lot more than I am nowadays, I've learned to tone myself down a bit around more sensitive people, and I tend to actually keep that side of myself (the Oscar Wilde disciple lol) restrained until I know the person well enough to know what they can handle and what they can't. The last thing I want to do is upset people, or to joke around at another's expense.

    He also seems like a major goofball who seems to take nothing seriously and is not committed to anything. He does not strike me as particularly dependable or trustworthy, usually you get the feeling that he says something, and five seconds later he has it comlpetely forgotten.
    I can be like that too, but it's a false impression because I am actually very seriously committed (even fanatically so) and loyal once I find something/someone worth committing to. I had a sorta 'oh shit moment' in my early 20s where I realised I had just this back-catalogue of started and unfinished projects and hadn't really achieved anything, so I made a point of working really hard on myself to develop stamina and a sense of commitment. You wouldn't believe how hard it was for me when I started doing this by just buying a model aeroplane and forcing myself to finish it even though I was bored by the time I'd just figured out how to finish it!!

    I still goof off in my 'down time' though - I can be seriously silly when I'm off duty, but that doesn't mean I can't quickly snap back into responsible mode if I need to.

    you come across as a genuinely committed person in your writting, but I thought I'd give you some impression that an ENTP I know gives of to the people around him, and that some ENTPs might come across very differently from how they think they do.
    Aw shucks! Thank you! Yeah I guess it's hanging out with NJ's so much that's had that effect on me. But my Enneagram sometimes comes out as 8, or split evenly between 5 and 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    ...Maybe you should try describing your interaction with a less dysfunctional example of a non-NT than your INFJ friend?
    Well I dunno, I can't really go over in detail every INFJ or NF I've known... but the general trend is like that woman but just less 'extreme'.

    My brother for example is ENFP. He seems incapable of understanding the concept of someone actually enjoying losing their temper. If I lose my temper at him, he gets shit scared and starts thinking I'm gonna hit him or something, thinks I've turned into a loose canon that's out of control and keeps telling me to calm down, which just irritates me because ffs I'm not angry at him, I'm not threatening him, I'm just frustrated with an idea that isn't cooperating ... lol... or a situation or just myself, and I've no intention at all of harming him, and I'm not like, dysfunctional or anything, I'm perfectly in control of myself and I'm enjoying the temper because it's so relieving to get the frustration out and exorcise it. If I had to sit on it and hold it all in then I probably would get dysfunctional and I would get angry at him then, because I'd be resenting the way his toxic reaction to anger forces me to hold in all this frustration. If he'd just leave me alone and let me rant, and just laugh at me, I'd laugh with him and it'd soon pass and I'd feel relieved to have got all the frustration out. Within minutes we could be laughing and sharing another joint, and I'd be thanking him for letting me rant, but it ends up like an hour of him stubbornly insisting that he won't listen to me until I calm down, and me insisting that I can't calm down until he listens to me and getting increasingly pissed while he gets increasingly scared and confused!

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    WTF? His dominant Ne couldn't get any more obvious if it put on a grass skirt and did the Hula!
    I'm with you. The outer behavior is not "him" -- it's merely a disguise he wears to disarm or distract others, giving him time to think about what is happening and craft a new plan internally.

    ESFPs' selves are established in Se, not in the internal world. That's where they do their thinking; they don't really observe their behavior as a third-party, they ARE what they appear to be (at least, until they mature a great deal).

    ---

    I think I've just realised from reading these replies, what part of the 'problem' is. It seems that what, from my point of view, is someone who's totally absorbed by enthusiasm with an idea, and to whom nothing but the idea matters, and who has in a sense lost his own sense of self in a state of mind where all he wants to do is gather more information to add to this idea, in order to do which he needs to poke it out of others (in the form of their reactions to the idea), can come across quite differently from the other side. It can seem as attention-whoring, or great self-confidence or social ease, or indeed, assertiveness.
    Oh, definitely. I think that's at least part, if not all, of it. I felt the same thing with my good ENTP friend. He would just get so caught up in the concept or idea that he was irrepressible and had no sense of how to rein it in... nor saw a need to.

    And really, it's not like he NEEDS to per se -- it's simply one approach to things -- except that when he deals with introverts and especially non-N introverts, there is a real chance he could easily become annoying and just feel very overbearing to them, like a dynamo. He would exhaust me after awhile, just trying to deal with him sometimes, and I was even on the same page mentally/imagination-wise.

    It's just something for you to keep in the back of your head -- "How am I coming across to these cowering, timid, easily exhausted introverts?"

    You're get it, I'm sure. I mean, you came up with this on your own; now it's just a matter of not forgetting it when you're interacting, and just taking a little more care to tune into the people around you, not just the idea. Do not abandon your enthusiasm, though; it's one of your strengths.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    If the ENTP has a tendency to overly nuance its conclusions then the INTJ has a tendency to reduce its conclusions to either 0 or 1.

    ENTP: "We must be aware of liability X within the theoretical framework of Y."

    INTJ: "Are you saying that Y is totally useless?"

  6. #26
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I've known her for six years...

    It's like she sees it as my job, my responsibility to constantly alter my behaviour and monitor myself so as not to hurt her precious feelings, but she doesn't seem to think it's at all reasonable that she should make a similar effort to restrain her paranoia!!
    Wow. Yeah, that goes beyond personality/temperament types. She definitely has issues of some sort. Was she mistreated as a child or abandoned? Here are a few thoughts that may or may not apply.

    1. If you mean a great deal to her, she may feel incapable of coping if you ever did reject her, and so she rehearses it as a reflex. It could be a twisted way of actually trusting you, or trying to, but there is always one more test she needs you to pass. Has she ever arrived at trusting anyone? Or is she stuck in the testing phase with no way out?

    2. That she has lied to you and you forgave her is an important fact. Oftentimes a person's lack of trust results from their lack of trustworthiness. In a cheating relationship for example, the one who is cheating can actually get paranoid that their partner is cheating. It can be about projecting one's own lack of trustworthiness.

    3. When a person has been abandoned and/or violated, that leaves an unresolved issue. When such scars occur in childhood, we don't have the emotional/rational tools to cope, so our brains store away the suffering. As we get older we tend to project that rejection and relive it in the present as a way of trying to resolve it. That is part of the reason why children of alcoholics or abusers often marry in kind. If that's the case, she needs counseling.

    4. Is there anything about her paranoia that pressures you to reassure her in ways that benefit her? Could it be in part manipulation?

    5. Chemical imbalances in the brain can also result in anxiety problems and paranoia.

    Those are the possibilities that come foremost to my mind at the moment. What I would like to emphasize here is that the behavior you describe is not so much INFJ as it is dysfunctional. Do what you can, but don't lose hope. You will have no trouble connecting with a healthy INFJ or any other non-NT, I strongly suspect.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    If the ENTP has a tendency to overly nuance its conclusions then the INTJ has a tendency to reduce its conclusions to either 0 or 1.

    ENTP: "We must be aware of liability X within the theoretical framework of Y."

    INTJ: "Are you saying that Y is totally useless?"
    INTP: "Maybe. I think."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    My mom's boyfriend is either an ENFP or ENTP. I am inclined to think he's an ENTP because he can be insensitive and selfish at times.
    Yeah, so I'm thinking selfish and insensitive have little-nothing to do with type. Maybe some types are just more likely to behave that way with a smile?

    Also, I'll add that I keep hearing these stories of extreme dysfuntion associated with INFJs. Sometimes I fear that when people encounter someone who is withdrawn, unrealistic, overly emotional, and rigid, the assumption is INFJ, when really they are just NUTS. I know an ISTP with all those same qualities. You'd be surprised how many types can be all those things. To anyone and everyone: please don't type all nut-jobs as INFJs unless they've taken the test, K?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #29
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    My mom's boyfriend is either an ENFP or ENTP. I am inclined to think he's an ENTP because he can be insensitive and selfish at times.
    My ENFP brother (7 years older than me) is wayyyy more self-centred, irresponsible and insensitive than I am - the whole family agrees...

    Regardless, his dominant Ne function is obvious. He comes up with crazy off-the-wall ideas .... He had this idea for building a water slide going down out of the bathroom window on the second floor.
    LMAO!! I love it! *goes to look at own bathroom window, rubs chin*

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Those are the possibilities that come foremost to my mind at the moment. What I would like to emphasize here is that the behavior you describe is not so much INFJ as it is dysfunctional. Do what you can, but don't lose hope. You will have no trouble connecting with a healthy INFJ or any other non-NT, I strongly suspect.
    Thanks, that's actually very insightful and helpful. She wasn't abused as a kid, but she was married for a while to an abusive husband... But this gives me lots to think about... and was that a veiled compliment in there somewhere?

    I do usually get on okay with most people... just now and then I meet these very sensitive types and it gets me all like, anxious, second-guessing myself all the time and worried that any minute now they're gonna drop their rattle for reasons incomprehensible to me, but which they'll nonetheless blame on me. I get sick of being called insensitive and intimidating when a lot of the time I feel like I'm virtually in a straight-jacket because of how hard I'm always trying to be sensitive and approachable.

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Also, I'll add that I keep hearing these stories of extreme dysfuntion associated with INFJs. Sometimes I fear that when people encounter someone who is withdrawn, unrealistic, overly emotional, and rigid, the assumption is INFJ, when really they are just NUTS.
    INFJs are all nuts?

    Well, okay... but that is the craziest thing I ever heard.

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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