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  1. #11
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    And I would class Jack Sparrow as an ESFP. He's probably the most earthy character Depp has ever played.
    WTF? His dominant Ne couldn't get any more obvious if it put on a grass skirt and did the Hula!

    ---

    I think I've just realised from reading these replies, what part of the 'problem' is. It seems that what, from my point of view, is someone who's totally absorbed by enthusiasm with an idea, and to whom nothing but the idea matters, and who has in a sense lost his own sense of self in a state of mind where all he wants to do is gather more information to add to this idea, in order to do which he needs to poke it out of others (in the form of their reactions to the idea), can come across quite differently from the other side.

    It can seem as attention-whoring, or great self-confidence or social ease, or indeed, assertiveness.

    In effect, it seems like what I need to do with my INFJ friend, is to somehow make her aware that when I'm in that mind space, what she's actually talking to is an incarnated idea, or perhaps a hub around which float ideas that have magnetized to it from the ether, which is presenting itself to her for whittling, adding to, moulding etc, and not a person who is challenging her or throwing down gauntlets or insisting on anything.

    What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    The three ENTPs I know are "always on." Each one is, also, of the other persuasion -- that twist makes their presence somewhat like having Oscar Wilde in the room. Still, witty is enjoyable; tirelessly witty is cloying.
    Do you mean 'gay'? Cos I'm gay... mostly. I dig what you say about tirelessly witty... but by the same token, sometimes it feels tiring to me when people seem to always expect me to be 'on', when I might not feel like it...

  2. #12
    Member Alesia's Avatar
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    You don't EEeevveeennNNnnnn want me to get started on my ENTP boss!!!

    Intimidating? Yes.

    Manipulative? Oh, you've never seen the likes. So smooth, suave and sophisticated when he wanted to be, and then would turn around and call people morons. His favorite admitted book was "Winning Power Through Intimidation". It must have been his Bible, because he was damn good at it.

    I've met three ENTPs. One, I could have been lover's with, if I weren't married at the time. This very good-looking but totally intimidating boss. And another ENTP, who is really whacked out. He's not mentally stable, really.

    I think I need to go to an ENTP convention, and see what real ENTPs are supposed to be like.
    Last edited by Alesia; 05-29-2007 at 02:31 PM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I've been reading here and there where other types (particularly F's and S's) talk about ENTP's and saying that we're generally forceful, aggressive and assertive, implying it in a bad way.

    This strikes me as odd, because I've never thought of myself as an aggressive person. Assertive, certainly - I will be outspoken about things that piss me off, and I can be persuasive and I admit, manipulative too at times.

    However, the last thing that's ever on my mind is actually forcing people to do or think anything. Sometimes I do express myself perhaps more openly and assertively than some other people do, but it's not because I'm trying to force or persuade - I'm trying to be as clear as possible and I want people to push back and tell me things 'in no uncertain terms'. If they have a problem I want them to voice it, and if they voice it, I want to listen and understand and make any necessary changes to help them. When I ask 'What is your problem?' it's out of curiosity, not aggression or defensiveness.

    One of the things that frustrates me most about a friendship I have with an INFJ woman, is when things go all awry because apparently, something I've been doing has been upsetting her, but I've not known because she hasn't told me, so I've kept on doing it. I ask her in exasperation why on earth she didn't just say if she had a problem, and she says she was worried that I'd get mad or annoyed at her, and yet when she finally does say what the problem was, I always concede that she has a point, and apologise, and do what I can do improve things in the future, so I really don't know where she gets this idea from that I'm so aggressive and unapproachable...

    But, come to think of it, it seems the only people I can really rely on in my life to give me honest feedback in clear and unambiguous terms, without pulling punches (the way I like it) are two ENTJ's and an INTJ... and they don't exactly have great reputations for tact either...

    I'd be really interested to hear about other people's experiences with ENTP's and how we come across, as I fear some of it may be lost in translation and I'd like to be able to communicate with the people I know in a way that doesn't make them afraid of me! And I'd also like to know what ways I could use to more effectively get clear and honest feedback from the gentler types... after all, if the only frank advice I'm getting is from similarly assertive types, then it won't help me in dealing with the others and just might exacerbate the problem (if there even is one).
    You sound exactly like me. I've had some problems with sensitive people reacting badly to me for strange reasons. xNTJ's are the only ones from who you can get really honest feedback.

    I have an ENTP friend and he is much more laid back. We're quite similar in alot of regards and get along great. The differences between him and I are that he is always looking for new stuff, much less outspoken and confrontational, much less goal oriented, etc. But ironically he gets more into hot waters with people than I do. I think it's because people feel that the ENTP is trying to influence them but it's done in a somewhat indirect way. So, they become wary and distrustful of him and call him "manipulative".

    ENTP's can surely be aggressive, but they are rarely over the top assertive and pushing their views. It's more playful and enthusiastic, but this can annoy people even more for the reasons I mentionned. Not everyone is happy go lucky, and the more you are with so called "intellectual" people, the stronger this seems to be.

    It's good to ask yourselves questions but don't give people power over you by worrying about how you come across. I know ENTP's want to be liked more than ENTJ's. But after all, people have to like you for who you are. If they don't value your style and don't undertand it's just enthusiasm, then they're probably not worth it. After a certain point of trying, it's better to seek other people rather than trying to make people close understand.

  4. #14
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    In effect, it seems like what I need to do with my INFJ friend, is to somehow make her aware that when I'm in that mind space, what she's actually talking to is an incarnated idea, or perhaps a hub around which float ideas that have magnetized to it from the ether, which is presenting itself to her for whittling, adding to, moulding etc, and not a person who is challenging her or throwing down gauntlets or insisting on anything.

    What do you think?
    Very good idea!

    My close ENTP friend and I have had a conflict for years that we recently figured out (thank you MBTI): Whenever we discuss something, I always have my eye on the conclusion ("Would this new argument, if sound, alter the bottom line?"). As you can imagine, our dynamic has always been very productive when discussing things that I see as affecting the bottom line, because then I value his input and freely whittle, add to and mould it. However, often he will introduce a point that I deem irrelevant, and then I have, up until now, disregarded the point itself (much to his frustration) and instead struggled to find out WHY he apparently considered it relevant - not realizing that he merely wants to understand (and align our understanding of) every aspect of the topic at hand, irrespective of each aspect's ultimate usefulness.

    If this is an NeTi-NiTe thing, then I assume there are parallels to the NeTi-NiFe dynamic. Both INXJs get overwhelmed by a barrage of what we see as irrelevant criticism of our bottom line. The INTJ gets exasperated and becomes belligerent, and the INFJ gets intimidated and shuts down. Both benefit from realizing that the ENTP actually values truth-seeking in itself and enjoys the INXJ's company precisely because our purposeful intuition makes us good at the whittling, adding to and moulding of ideas.

    So I applaud your plan of action and will add that you should make explicit that your eager presentation of ideas is actually a gesture of your respect for her, since it shows that you value her judgment. Also, especially since she is F, don't take for granted that she knows how much you enjoy her company just because you concede a lot of her points (this would be a hygiene factor in relationships with INXJs ). Verbalize your appreciation and affection for her to the full extent that you feel it. That way, you will make it safe and worthwhile for her to come out of her shell and respond to you.

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    One of the things that frustrates me most about a friendship I have with an INFJ woman, is when things go all awry because apparently, something I've been doing has been upsetting her, but I've not known because she hasn't told me, so I've kept on doing it. I ask her in exasperation why on earth she didn't just say if she had a problem, and she says she was worried that I'd get mad or annoyed at her, and yet when she finally does say what the problem was, I always concede that she has a point, and apologise, and do what I can do improve things in the future, so I really don't know where she gets this idea from that I'm so aggressive and unapproachable...
    If I were in her shoes, there wouldn't be enough trust established based on that description. When I really value someone, their rejection is pretty hard to cope with. If someone's behavior is unpredictable, I need more time to get a feel for their true self to feel trust. My guess is that you will need to adapt to her a little for it to work. Perhaps just make a habit of directly asking her if everything is alright on occasion? I appreciate people who can help draw me out, but that isn't always accomplished only through assertiveness. It requires that the other person believes I'm worth drawing out.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    But, come to think of it, it seems the only people I can really rely on in my life to give me honest feedback in clear and unambiguous terms, without pulling punches (the way I like it) are two ENTJ's and an INTJ... and they don't exactly have great reputations for tact either...
    I have especially liked the ENTPs I've encountered. I really appreciate direct communication. Once trust is established, then I can filter the harshness through what I understand to be their intent. I 'think' most INFJs value looking deeper into a person than the surface style of communication.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #16
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    If I were in her shoes, there wouldn't be enough trust established based on that description. When I really value someone, their rejection is pretty hard to cope with. If someone's behavior is unpredictable, I need more time to get a feel for their true self to feel trust. My guess is that you will need to adapt to her a little for it to work. Perhaps just make a habit of directly asking her if everything is alright on occasion? I appreciate people who can help draw me out, but that isn't always accomplished only through assertiveness. It requires that the other person believes I'm worth drawing out.
    I've known her for six years. I've told her time and time again that I love and care for her, value her opinions, that my friendship with her is unconditional and that she means the world to me. She has it in writing many times, and has had it verbally over and over. I've never rejected her, never yelled at her, I've repeatedly shown that nothing she can say is a burden to me and that I'm interested in her, her life, her problems, and that I care. I've said this all so many times I'm utterly weary of having to keep on saying it, to the extent where it starts to feel cloying and I worry that it might seem insincere cos I say it so much. I've never betrayed her, I've opened up to her and told her everything about my life, my feelings, things I've never told anyone else.

    When her daughter got teased for her cheap clothes and this woman was too broke to sort it out, without a second thought I just gave them $600 for her daughter to get kitted out. I've bailed her out of trouble financially and socially time and time again. I've never given up on her, I've stuck with her, defended her against other people who've attacked her, always taken her side and taken rap for her in times when she was wrong. There are times when she's lied to me and deceived me, but I've forgiven her every time and never brought it up again.

    She lives in Canada, and FFS I've even paid $4000 for her to come and spend a month here in England staying at my home, which I wouldn't just do for anyone!

    If this isn't enough for her to think I value her and trust me, then... well. I dunno.

    She just seems to never run out of creative ways to imagine that I'm 'rejecting' her. I feel like I'm constantly on edge because anything I say or do might bring on another one of her funny turns where she clams up on me and starts acting like she thinks I hate her, when as far as I know I've done all I can to reassure and validate her, FAR more than I'd ever do for anyone else.

    It's like she sees it as my job, my responsibility to constantly alter my behaviour and monitor myself so as not to hurt her precious feelings, but she doesn't seem to think it's at all reasonable that she should make a similar effort to restrain her paranoia!!

  7. #17
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    If this isn't enough for her to think I value her and trust me, then... well. I dunno.

    She just seems to never run out of creative ways to imagine that I'm 'rejecting' her. I feel like I'm constantly on edge because anything I say or do might bring on another one of her funny turns where she clams up on me and starts acting like she thinks I hate her, when as far as I know I've done all I can to reassure and validate her, FAR more than I'd ever do for anyone else.

    It's like she sees it as my job, my responsibility to constantly alter my behaviour and monitor myself so as not to hurt her precious feelings, but she doesn't seem to think it's at all reasonable that she should make a similar effort to restrain her paranoia!!
    Sounds like there's something way more than just type conflict going on there. Could she have low self-esteem? A personality disorder? A secret crush on you?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It's like she sees it as my job, my responsibility to constantly alter my behaviour and monitor myself so as not to hurt her precious feelings, but she doesn't seem to think it's at all reasonable that she should make a similar effort to restrain her paranoia!!
    It does sound like a bad case of low self-esteem? I know, I'm supposed to say "poor her" and provide some understanding words. Don't worry, others will come along and do that. Personally, I think she sounds like a PITA.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  9. #19
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Well, I don't wanna get too involved in talking about that particular woman, cos she's really just an example of similar experiences I seem to have with other INFJ's, but not just that type - in fact most non-NT types

    I actually read somewhere that the INFJ relationship to ENTP is 'supervisor' - that is, the INFJ seems to think the ENTP needs her/him and takes it as their duty to teach the ENTP something that the ENTP doesn't understand. It said the ENTP usually gets stressed and irritated by this, not knowing what's wanted or expected of him and feeling sometimes suffocated by the wierd kind of attention, but that if both sides make an effort to back up a little it can be a happy relationship where they're interpreting each other's responses as what they wanted to hear, and continue in a happy kind of misunderstanding.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    ENTPs dont come across to me as particularly aggressive or intimidating, but I notice in my ENTP friend that he often says hurtful or offensive things to people for the sake of beeing funny, he seems to see it just as playful teasing, but some things he says are actually very hurtful, I imagine especially to F people.

    He also seems like a major goofball who seems to take nothing seriously and is not committed to anything. He does not strike me as particularly dependable or trustworthy, usually you get the feeling that he says something, and five seconds later he has it comlpetely forgotten. Dont get me wrong he is still a nice guy and fun to talk to and hang out with, but I would not trust him with anything important, he does not seem like the person you can count on when things get tough, and I also would not want to live with him, even if I like him very much, since I'd probably be doing all the work and important stuff and he'd be just goofing off and watching videos on youtube. . Though that is only one ENTP I know and I am talking about him here and not about you, you come across as a genuinely committed person in your writting, but I thought I'd give you some impression that an ENTP I know gives of to the people around him, and that some ENTPs might come across very differently from how they think they do.

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