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  1. #51
    seńor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (Which is funny, because often I feel much more forgiving of others. The best way around it, I have found, has been to say, "Look at how forgiving of others you are when they don't meet the ideal, if you know they can't do better at the time and if you know they really are trying. Now.... is it logical to treat yourself any differently or more harshly?")
    I am more forgiving, too. But that is me being narcissistic. I expect more of myself; as in my prime, I feel enlightened and intelligent. I know others have their moments, but I often feel like I'm better.

    Narcissism: another case of me not meeting my ideals. I can't see improvement here in the future, either.
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    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  2. #52
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I think I'm more worried about somebody not giving me adequate space than somebody being incapable of loving me. Especially considering my age, people seem to be very... clingy. I have a feeling they wouldn't be able to understand not wanting to see anyone for weeks at a time, that I'm exhausted after two or three hours of interaction, that I can't just go on and on and on...

    I need lots and lots of time alone. A boyfriend doesn't really fit into that time needed nicely.
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  3. #53
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    I am more forgiving, too. But that is me being narcissistic. I expect more of myself; as in my prime, I feel enlightened and intelligent. I know others' have their moments, but I often feel like I'm better.
    That's the flaw that I have experienced too: I expected more of myself because, for some reason, I guess I did feel like I was "better" at the time. Even if I consciously strove so hard not to put myself above others.

    Narcissism: another case of me not meeting my ideals. I can't see improvement here, in the future, either.
    Near future, or ENTIRE future?
    How old are you?

    It can change, given enough time and life experience, I think.

    After awhile, you'll probably get sick enough of living under that onus. And the rest eases up too, when you realize you can't meet your standards and so actually you're NOT better than others. But it takes experience and getting a sense of your real limitations.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54
    seńor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    i took it to mean:
    1. Thinking that I'm utterly unlovable is extreme/dramatic, the truth is far more moderate.
    2. It doesn't mean I don't feel that way sometimes anyway, even if I know it's extreme.
    3. however, that attitude often disguises itself to look differently, and the way I rationalize things helps cloak it further. often I realize it's there only because of the end-product of my thoughts and the behavior I indulge in... and I have to "be a detective" and work backwards to realize it's part of my foundational assumptions about myself.
    4. The fact that I can feel and LOOK confident in areas outside the interpersonal (like academic matters, or creative matters, or something else related to my ability to use my head outside of relationships) also makes it harder for others to perceive that I consider myself fatally flawed in some way.
    Thanks, Jennifer. 1, 2, and 4 I can completely relate to, and now understand. I'm still having trouble with number 3. Any chance you could dumb it down again, for me? I even shut the door to stop the distraction of my dad eating chips.
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    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  5. #55
    seńor member colmena's Avatar
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    That's the flaw that I have experienced too: I expected more of myself because, for some reason, I guess I did feel like I was "better" at the time. Even if I consciously strove so hard not to put myself above others.
    The past-tense is certainly reassuring, here

    Near future, or ENTIRE future?
    Realistically (I hope), near future. But the amount I procrastinate leads me to believe it will be my entire future. That's with my pessimistic hat on (I don't think it actually comes off).

    How old are you?
    19. I think I put that in my profile.


    It can change, given enough time and life experience, I think.

    After awhile, you'll probably get sick enough of living under that onus. And the rest eases up too, when you realize you can't meet your standards and so actually you're NOT better than others. But it takes experience and getting a sense of your real limitations.
    This is my hope. Although, as I'm sure you know, hope is a horrible word as it stunts the present. INTP paradox again, I think.

    You're very helpful to a young INTP, Jennifer. I'll have to have a read through your blog.

    MP has been very helpful, too; despite being the same age as me.
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    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  6. #56
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    Thanks, Jennifer. 1, 2, and 4 I can completely relate to, and now understand. I'm still having trouble with number 3. Any chance you could dumb it down again, for me? I even shut the door to stop the distraction of my dad eating chips.
    Mmmm.... what sort of chips?

    Oh well, when the chips are downed, there I am to explain #3.

    The original poster needs to verify my translation, but what I took it to mean:

    Some people who feel utterly unlovable react in very overt obvious ways. They might constantly lash out or push people away. They also might instead become utterly clingy and intrusive, begging to be loved. It's easy to recognize those behaviors as signals that someone feels unlovable.

    NTs tend to rationalize everything, and usually that level of emotional response feels uncomfortable. So the signals are muted.

    They might become more reclusive either physically or else simply keep a hedge around their personal info, keeping others out that way from their personal lives.

    They just might not engage on a personal/emotional level, even if they allow others to engage them.

    Or perhaps they get intellectually haughty -- seeming to always be tooting their own horn, or having to make a profound comment about every topic at hand, without engaging on a personal and honest level. Basically trying to justify their value through the one thing they feel confident about. Going out of their way to find intellectual things to do and avoiding the personal aspects where their self-perceived inadequacies will be apparent.

    And if you ask them, they might not even realize this. Feeling out of control emotionally is scary and painful, and of course even 'silly' ... because it's just emotions and no one should be controlled by irrational emotion, so they'll just brush it off if challenged.

    I don't know, I'm just sort of "brushing broadly" right now. If someone has another idea or can better expand on these ideas, feel free.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #57
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    The past-tense is certainly reassuring, here
    I'll be honest, I edited it appropriately on my second pass.

    The truth is I still deal with it, but it's much less pronounced than when I was younger... i.e., it's not controlling me, I'm controlling it.

    Realistically (I hope), near future. But the amount I procrastinate leads me to believe it will be my entire future. That's with my pessimistic hat on (I don't think it actually comes off). 19. I think I put that in my profile.
    I gathered, when you talked about your chip-eating dad. I don't usually read profiles unless I get a good reason.


    This is my hope. Although, as I'm sure you know, hope is a horrible word as it stunts the present. INTP paradox again, I think.
    When I was younger, the problem was that my world rather sucked -- so projecting rationally from THAT set of experiences didn't lead to much hope of change, it was very depressing.

    I had to get into the world and realize other aspects of the world, to get my possibility tree opened up and realize there was hope. The more variety in life you experience, the more hope you might find: Awareness of more options helps immensely.

    You're very helpful to a young INTP, Jennifer. I'll have to have a read through your blog.
    It's um... a little long. Skip as much as you need to.

    MP has been very helpful, too; despite being the same age as me.
    honestly, when I was 19, I was in much worse shape than you guys, I think. So don't downplay things, you've got a lot going for you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #58
    seńor member colmena's Avatar
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    Well. If I could be summed up in two posts: it would be those.

    Superbly helpful, Jennifer. Thank you kindly.
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    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I think I'm more worried about somebody not giving me adequate space than somebody being incapable of loving me.
    But if someone can't look at things from your perspective, expects you to be less introverted and can't leave you to yourself for the time you need, does he then really accept you the way you are?

    (Which is funny, because often I feel much more forgiving of others. The best way around it, I have found, has been to say, "Look at how forgiving of others you are when they don't meet the ideal, if you know they can't do better at the time and if you know they really are trying. Now.... is it logical to treat yourself any differently or more harshly?")
    *nods* it's gotten better as I get older too.

    i took it to mean:

    1. Thinking that I'm utterly unlovable is extreme/dramatic, the truth is far more moderate.
    2. It doesn't mean I don't feel that way sometimes anyway, even if I know it's extreme.
    3. however, that attitude often disguises itself to look differently, and the way I rationalize things helps cloak it further. often I realize it's there only because of the end-product of my thoughts and the behavior I indulge in... and I have to "be a detective" and work backwards to realize it's part of my foundational assumptions about myself.
    4. The fact that I can feel and LOOK confident in areas outside the interpersonal also makes it harder for others to perceive that I consider myself fatally flawed in some way.
    1. yup...see above; I would say that it's more about full acceptance of myself as a person with all my very quirky quirks and flaws than about romantic love. I know that it simply isn't true that no one can accept me/love me the way I am.

    2. Interactions with loved ones - even friends sometimes - still indicate that I am convinced that I still need to prove my worth at all times. And yes, this might well stem from the fact that I consider myself somewhat superior...you know, we're harsh on ourselves because we have much lower expectations for other people.

    3. It's not as if I'm rolling around in self-pitty, it's more like a to me objective assessment that...I'm not perfect (which I rationally know is A-ok :p)...it also rarely makes me crybaby sad, but expresses itself in a certain guardedness or defensiveness, a wall. Maybe insecurity is a bad way of putting it because it has certain connotations that aren't really applicable to this case.

    4. Yes, however, because that interpersonal realm isn't as foundational as the conceptual one, I don't consider myself fatally flawed, just flawed in a way that doesn't make it easy (core translation: impossible) to accept me the way I am. Rather than trying to achieve perfection I'm now trying to get over the idea that I'm flawed and unnacceptable, but so be it and am starting to realise that flaws are loveable too. But yeah, striving for perfection is kind of a second nature.

    In the end, I think it's more a dynamic between me and myself rather than between me and the other person...hmmm. And then again, I don't hate myself an sich, I just don't find myself to be an easy person to be with for other people. Maybe the fact that I still separate those two indicates that I still haven't really dealt with it appropriately, though. Hmmm. And then again, one can wonder whether this desire to integrate the emotional/realise that flaws are loveable too - in fact this very thread - isn't yet another form of looking for perfection.

    On the plus side, the high standard is also what makes us the innovators of this world.

  10. #60
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    What exactly happens when one merges an INTJ with an ENP?
    Of course, every INTJ is not compatible with every ENP, but as I said, I find that the mutual success rate is high, and when it does work out, you enter an Ne-Ni feedback loop that is simultaneously exhilarating and easy. They get you, but at the same time they're interestingly different from you, so the conversation just keeps on going. When you're completely in tune (i.e. when there's no friction due to, say, the INTJ being stubborn or the ENP being irresponsible), it feels like the two of you are soaring above the world, twice as alive. ... Have I mentioned that I highly recommend it?

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