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[ENTP] Are Conspiracy Theories Irrational?

W

WALMART

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I wonder how you get to that conclusion? Not that I disagree with you or anything, it actually is rather logically sound to say that.

"I call the two preceding types irrational for reasons already referred to; namely, because their commissions and omissions are based not upon reasoned judgment but upon the absolute intensity of perception. Their perception is concerned with simple happenings, where no selection has been exercised by the judgment. In this respect both the latter types have a considerable superiority over the two judging types. The objective occurrence is both law-determined and accidental. In so far as it is law-determined, it is accessible to reason; in so far as it is accidental, it is not. One might reverse it and say that we apply the term law-determined to the occurrence appearing so to our reason, and where its regularity escapes us we call it accidental. The postulate of a universal lawfulness remains a postulate of reason only; in no sense is it a postulate of our functions of perception. Since these are in no way grounded upon the principle of reason and its postulates, they are, of their very nature, irrational. Hence my term 'irrational' corresponds with the nature of the perception-types. But merely because they subordinate judgment to perception, it would be quite incorrect to regard these types as unreasonable. They are merely in a high degree empirical; they are grounded exclusively upon experience, so exclusively, in fact, that as a rule, their judgment cannot keep pace with their experience."

Here is the excerpt in which he speaks of irrationality, as a term. Compare it to the original post.

This does not get into the introverted irrational type, however.
[MENTION=16264]WhoCares[/MENTION] - it has nothing to do with the traditional notions of rationality and irrationality.
 

baccheion

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Conspiracy theories aren't crazy, some of them are closer to the truth than is evident at first glance. Some conspiracy theorists, however, blow things way out of proportion and go completely out of control, some to the point that they lose all touch with reality and go completely insane. But if it wasn't to the tune of a conspiracy theory, then it would be to something else. Some people are just always looking for something to go extreme about. Also, personalities that tend to end up mentally ill tend to have a natural inclination toward believing conspiracy theories, or, more importantly, some people, after experiencing insanity, don't see it as that unlikely for these conspiracy theories to be true, and sometimes it explains or reflects their insanity perfectly. I can't blame them and in a way it can be therapeutic for them, as long as they don't become extreme with it.

As for people who believe in conspiracy theories, they aren't always insane, and there's nothing really wrong with keeping your mind open to different alternatives. It sounds like a perceiver thing in this case. Like, I don't know who shot JFK, or if it was a conspiracy, but something obviously seemed off, and I also support the notion that you can't always believe what's fed to you through the media. I've also been on the "inside" for many corporations, and have seen first hand what they really do, then the BS they feed their customers after, and, more importantly, I saw afterwards how expertly the customers cut through the shit they were being fed and figured out exactly what the company was doing. I also saw how tirelessly the companies worked to shut them up, and just this tangential experience alone (I didn't even know the company was doing these things, it's after I was tipped off by reading what the customers had to say that I was tipped off, checked, then found out) was enough to make me begin questioning things even more, and to make me listen to that offbeat voice or the voice of the people even more, because they have a habit, as a group, of figuring it all out. Sometimes it's amazing how they do it, because I'd never see the connection myself.
 

Azure Flame

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read conspiracy of the rich, by robert kiyosaki.

There are definitely groups of people with a lot of money who influence the direction our country takes.

However I don't think there is any formal or organized super secret "illuminati" or "knights templar" that has a tradition of trying to take over the world and gas the christians to pave way for the Draconians. lol.

I view the "Illuminati" as more of a force of nature. Human greed is such that there will always be groups of people who want to dominate and direct the course of history, and their utter selfishness directs the course of humanity. When evil is naturally a part of man and holiness is seemingly "unnatural" and takes effort to achieve, its easy to see why humanity is naturally headed toward a state of evil, so long as good men continue to do nothing.

Satan more or less rules the world, and I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that this "evil" side of humanity, is common among ALL humans, and not just per individual. Imagine for a minute, that everyone in the world has the lowest possible enneagram health level. Living on earth, would truly be a hell of its own.

I believe hell is real, just not a specific lake of fire orbiting alpha centauri somewhere. Aside from the fact that many people on earth naturally believe in reincarnation, including primitive mongolian nomads... typology even goes into this HERE. Scroll to the very bottom to see what I mean.

I think it was jung himself who said that what we like about ourselves, is how we subjectively PERCEIVE ourselves, and thus, how we perceive the universe. When taking this into account, its not unreasonable to believe that hell is a part of our universe that we come to perceive naturally, or we learn to perceive heaven unnaturally.

Still figuring this out.
 

prplchknz

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I don't know if conspiracy theories are real. But sometimes I believe them and get really really scared because sometimes they're about me. but I'm powerless over the outcome and if theh want to harm me there's nothing I can really do.
 

Azure Flame

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I don't know if conspiracy theories are real. But sometimes I believe them and get really really scared because sometimes they're about me. but I'm powerless over the outcome and if theh want to harm me there's nothing I can really do.

lol. You CAN protect yourself. But being practical about it is different than donning a tinfoil hat and living in your basement 24/7.
 

Azure Flame

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how? no one ever believes me.

what do you mean no one ever believes you?

I've met several INFPs who talk a lot about aliens and secret military installations and etc. When you go online and someone says "I HAVE PROOF" it doesn't actually mean anything. It means they have a piece of paper that looks like proof. Who made the paper? What was the inspiration? You don't know.

I will tell you my method.

KNOW EVERYTHING.

When you learn psychology, you realize that hatred is often caused by fear, and that there is no reason to hate others. You begin to learn why wars are started, why Jesus was terrifying to many, and thus persecuted for his lifestyle.

Learn economics, and why the world is structured the way it is, how capitalism works, how the US economy works.

Learn every religion as if they are all true.

Only when you see every facet of life, will you be able to understand what it means, and predict its course.

Everyone is a genius in their own mind. Once you come to learn why this is, you will better understand the universe.
 

baccheion

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read conspiracy of the rich, by robert kiyosaki.

There are definitely groups of people with a lot of money who influence the direction our country takes.

However I don't think there is any formal or organized super secret "illuminati" or "knights templar" that has a tradition of trying to take over the world and gas the christians to pave way for the Draconians. lol.

I view the "Illuminati" as more of a force of nature. Human greed is such that there will always be groups of people who want to dominate and direct the course of history, and their utter selfishness directs the course of humanity. When evil is naturally a part of man and holiness is seemingly "unnatural" and takes effort to achieve, its easy to see why humanity is naturally headed toward a state of evil, so long as good men continue to do nothing.

Satan more or less rules the world, and I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that this "evil" side of humanity, is common among ALL humans, and not just per individual. Imagine for a minute, that everyone in the world has the lowest possible enneagram health level. Living on earth, would truly be a hell of its own.

I believe hell is real, just not a specific lake of fire orbiting alpha centauri somewhere. Aside from the fact that many people on earth naturally believe in reincarnation, including primitive mongolian nomads... typology even goes into this HERE. Scroll to the very bottom to see what I mean.

I think it was jung himself who said that what we like about ourselves, is how we subjectively PERCEIVE ourselves, and thus, how we perceive the universe. When taking this into account, its not unreasonable to believe that hell is a part of our universe that we come to perceive naturally, or we learn to perceive heaven unnaturally.

Still figuring this out.

It doesn't really matter if the illuminati exists. There are a bunch of people that have influence over many things that happen in this world, and they happen to be rich, and they happen to talk to each other, and they happen to usually be selfish in their ambition. That's all I need to know. Just look at major corporations. They can greatly shift the direction of many things around us, and if you've ever worked for one, then you know there are a bunch of profit driven idiots at the top who talk to each other and who make/filter all the decisions. And you also know that it's damn near impossible to make a good ethical decision see the light of day. Add enough of these companies/people up (I only assume these people are in government as well), and set it up that they talk/negotiate with each other on a regular basis and you have your problem.
 

Azure Flame

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It doesn't really matter if the illuminati exists. There are a bunch of people that have influence over many things that happen in this world, and they happen to be rich, and they happen to talk to each other, and they happen to usually be selfish in their ambition. That's all I need to know. Just look at major corporations. They can greatly shift the direction of many things around us, and if you've ever worked for one, then you know there are a bunch of profit driven idiots at the top who talk to each other and who make/filter all the decisions. And you also know that it's damn near impossible to make a good ethical decision see the light of day. Add enough of these companies/people up (I only assume these people are in government as well), and set it up that they talk/negotiate with each other on a regular basis and you have your problem.

haha, yup
 

Azure Flame

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It doesn't really matter if the illuminati exists. There are a bunch of people that have influence over many things that happen in this world, and they happen to be rich, and they happen to talk to each other, and they happen to usually be selfish in their ambition. That's all I need to know. Just look at major corporations. They can greatly shift the direction of many things around us, and if you've ever worked for one, then you know there are a bunch of profit driven idiots at the top who talk to each other and who make/filter all the decisions. And you also know that it's damn near impossible to make a good ethical decision see the light of day. Add enough of these companies/people up (I only assume these people are in government as well), and set it up that they talk/negotiate with each other on a regular basis and you have your problem.

haha, yup
 

meowington

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Conspiracy theories, to me, most often seem as just another handy diversion in favor of those who rob the world in broad daylight (multinational CEOs, druglords, dictators, politicians, bankers, stock traders, thiefs, the mob, ...).
 

AzulEyes

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Well- I believe many of the theories are true or have rings of truth. But I think some "conspiracy theorists" also take things too far and then make people not believe ANY of them because they get so damn nuts about it. And yeah- we are being lied to MORE than we are being told the truth.
 

SensEye

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I think you need to clearly define conspiracy.

I don't think the notion that corporations seek to maximize their profit and will lie/mislead/deceive to do so is really a "conspiracy". It's just what they do. It's like saying the sun is conspiring to shine.

I think the key to what are popularly know as "conspiracy theories" is attributing motivations to a person/persons that don't exist. So goofy notions like the illuminati are conspiring to bring about some new world order (why they would want a new world order I don't know, I think the party line is to pave the way for the anti-christ or some such silliness). Or those ones about aliens visiting in secret with shadowy government co-conspirators. Those ones are irrational.
 

RaptorWizard

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I think you need to clearly define conspiracy.

I don't think the notion that corporations seek to maximize their profit and will lie/mislead/deceive to do so is really a "conspiracy". It's just what they do. It's like saying the sun is conspiring to shine.

I think the key to what are popularly know as "conspiracy theories" is attributing motivations to a person/persons that don't exist. So goofy notions like the illuminati are conspiring to bring about some new world order (why they would want a new world order I don't know, I think the party line is to pave the way for the anti-christ or some such silliness). Or those ones about aliens visiting in secret with shadowy government co-conspirators. Those ones are irrational.

They are merely blown out of proportion, much like your avatar. Paranoid people start following the fake trails generated by dark side illusions and conceive the crazy places they lead towards to be reality. Things like hyper-dimensional aliens and such may indeed be somewhere, but could be more monitors and guides, along with some that direct people onto the wrong paths.
 

ameeker

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Even though there's a "rational" grouping in MBTI, I think all personality types have a different way we reason. I think a book title that sums this up is "I'm not crazy, I'm just not you." Also, some people latch onto conspiracy theories as a way to pin blame. So, if their subconscious logic tells them that they should pin blame, then it makes sense.
 

two cents

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#1 problem with conspiracy theories: they usually point to the explanation of a pattern of events (and, occasionally, even the pattern is imaginary/misperceived), that is statistically unlikely to be the case, compared against other possible explanations.

Now, occasionally, the least likely explanation happens to be true. BUT, because of how statistics works, this happens exceedingly rarely. It is overwhelmingly likely that, in a majority of cases, conspiracy theories are pure bullshit.

Therefore, when you believe conspiracy theories (especially when this is a habitual thing), especially multiple ones, people tend to think you are unable to exercise good judgment, and they are correct in that respect.

Furthermore, there happens to be a serious mental illness as well as a personality disorder that, as a symptom, make this type of bad/careless/uncritical thinking very prominent in their sufferers. So, the more your thinking aligns with this symptom the more reasonable it is for people around you to at least suspect that you might suffer from said mental illness or personality disorder.
 
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baccheion

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Well, there aren't that many conspiracy theories, so you can't say their reasoning is false because they are unlikely. Also, some conspiracy theories were more true in the beginning, and perhaps it was part of a strategy to cover them up and to discredit those that "blew the whistle" to exaggerate things until they were ridiculous. Getting crazy people to rant like lunatics about a conspiracy and framing people who know (or bring up the conspiracy) as being insane could also be part of the attempt to cover things up. People evil enough to do things like these conspiracies state lie a lot, and go to great lengths to cover up their bullshit. As a matter of fact, that's probably all they do, considering their life is defined by lies, bullshit, and failure after failure.
 

rogue350

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Well- I believe many of the theories are true or have rings of truth. But I think some "conspiracy theorists" also take things too far and then make people not believe ANY of them because they get so damn nuts about it. And yeah- we are being lied to MORE than we are being told the truth.
I agree! I'm not going to live in my mother's basement and research conspiracy theories every day. There is a website that I read every once in a while. I just find conspiracy theories very intriguing. People don't always tell the truth. People don't always do what people expect. Those who completely dismiss conspiracy theories are just extremely close minded and unopened to the limitless possibilities in this world. It's interesting when people analyze music videos, TV shows, and movies for esoteric symbols. I wouldn't devote my life to this kind of analysis but what people find is cool. I think -- like with anything else -- there is a balance that needs to be found. You can acknowledge the possibility of this or that happening but don't become a paranoid conspiracy theorist with the mad scientist Afro and involuntary twitches and always look behind your shoulder.
 

Anna Jorovic

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I'm very open to most ideas and will contemplate the validity and possible "reality" of what anyone says. I'm never really shocked by peoples' ideas and theories so I keep my mind open and consider the endless possibilities. I don't know who caused Sandy Hooke. I don't know who caused 9/11. I don't think everything on the news is true and we can never be sure what the govn't is hiding. I'm not really paranoid or suspicious of everything but I am open to the possibility that anything could happen. There are some people who think that conspiracy theories are completely out there and anyone who even considers them are crazy and mentally ill. AM I CRAZY AND MENTALLY ILL?

Conspiracy theories are generally not irrational, in themselves. If you keep them as a possibility rather than an unfounded belief then there's no trouble at all.

Not trusting governments is perfectly reasonable, given the available evidence. I can't think of a single honest government.
 

hjgbujhghg

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To some point, they are to the other they are not... They are always based on some real facts, but the way they present them is manipulative and nonobjective. They give you just one side of view...It's funny because conspiracy theories try to convince you, they are less manipulative and more objective, than the facts that are presented in mainstream medias, but they do the exact opposite. I think the true is always somewhere in between...
 
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