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  1. #41
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    K, reading all this, Ne leads to Ni for me

    ...depending on how playful I feel, how complex the subject and how much it is...up my alley, I'll take longer and do more 'Ne- exploring' to test and retest to make sure I grasped it properly, before I internalise it and get that 'nailed it' feeling.

    To follow up on @Coriolis ' analogy:

    I'll ask myself, using Ne, what happens if I change all the trees to Candy Canes and if it would still be considered a forest and what kind of forest that would be. I'll also imagine what it would be like to exchange the trees for all the same kind of tree, or have a diversity, which trees would not fit into that forest and why. I'll read up to see if the combinations I've thought of exist and how they differ from the classic example.

    Once Ive played around enough though, I'll distill the core where I can see the essential building blocks of what makes up any kind of forest (Ni?) as well as the extension packages available to make any forest you can imagine and still call it a forest (Ne?)


    Do INTJs use Ne to complete their process in a similar way?
    And if you do, do you use it similarly and as extensively as I just described?
    Or am I just...off with my interpretation of the functions here? Coz I very much identify with that 'suddenly things become clear'/eureka effect, when things click into place.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  2. #42
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @Coriolis

    Ok thanks. I think that I finally get it.

  3. #43
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I cannot understand concepts piecemeal, but only in their entirety. Books and course notes, on the other hand, are generally written in a linear fashion, showing you a series of pieces that make up the concept. What this means is that I will read or hear about all these pieces, not really understanding any one of them, until we get to the end and I can see how they all fit together. After reviewing it all, they will snap into place like the pieces of a puzzle, and I will have a top-down understanding of the topic that will never leave me.
    This is the very reason we learn faster from reference manuals than painfully-verbose textbooks. It short-circuits the process of acquiring the information since the information is condensed and focused on application, which we in turn process intuitively until we understand the inner workings of the subject.

    I can definitely relate to the descriptions of what happens when I finally grok something.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  4. #44
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    This is the very reason we learn faster from reference manuals than painfully-verbose textbooks. It short-circuits the process of acquiring the information since the information is condensed and focused on application, which we in turn process intuitively until we understand the inner workings of the subject.

    I can definitely relate to the descriptions of what happens when I finally grok something.
    This might be why I suck at learning from books. My learning style is not linear at all. It's all over the damn place.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    I do in fact do this. The way I experience it is through the intake of incredible amounts of information and then trying to solve what might appear to an outsider as a jigsaw puzzle. If the pieces are in the wrong places, then you can't figure out what the picture really is (assume this a very, very large jigsaw puzzle), but if the pieces are in the right places, you can see exactly what the picture is. I'll be toying with the concepts I'm learning, turning them and twisting them along with other information until they twist at just the right angle to see the entire picture. Had the same thing when I took Chemistry, I wasn't visualizing how the interactions were taking place, so some of the information seemed odd and confusing, but as soon as I linked it all together, I understood how everything functioned and could visualize all the little details, and everything just clicked.

    BTW: I'm have no preference for auditory, visual, or tactile learning, I use them all equally. I also think in words and pictures, some days I'll be thinking only in words (which are colored to me, so that my be the invasion of the right brain or just the synesthesia) while other days I'll be thinking in colors and pictures, and some days I'll just alternate between the two at will.

    AUDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL
    Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures
    Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths (VVIQ-2 is somewhere between 3.6 and 4.4)
    Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space
    Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
    Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
    Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
    Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer
    Attends well to details----------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details
    Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well
    Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
    Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
    Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
    Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
    Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization (It may look disorganized, but I know where everything is)
    Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively
    Excels at rote memorization(highly associative memory due to synesthesia)----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
    Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
    May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
    Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
    Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
    Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems
    Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
    Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
    Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics
    Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion
    Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, emotionally, or technologically gifted
    Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer

  6. #46
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Vis...earner/vsl.htm

    AUDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL
    • Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures
    • Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths
    • Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space
    • Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
    • Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
    • Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
    • Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer
    • Attends well to details----------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details
    • Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well
    • Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
    • Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
    • Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
    • Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
    • Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization
    • Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively
    • Excels at rote memorization----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
    • Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
    • May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
    • Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
    • Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
    • Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems
    • Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
    • Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
    • Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics
    • Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion
    • Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, emotionally, or technologically gifted
    • Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer


    @Inari Love do you relate to the visual spatial learner?
    I could also see how the visual-spatial side is applicable to Ni in particular and dynamics in general per Socionics. Supposedly, dynamic types make a picture out of words or a story whereas static types process things more in words.

  7. #47
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ehm..I'm no NJ, but...I work this way as well

    Visual spatial for me, for the most part, though my auditory memory works really well when listening to a professor.

    Also, I learn in 3 ways:

    - short term memory abuse: I have a photographic memory and as long as I sort of understand the subject, I can memories entire pages by taking a mental picture, causing me to go ' skip to page 216, write down definition of whatever t is they're asking for verbatim'. I lose that info within two days though and there is a limit to how much I can absorb that way.

    - The way that Ni-users here described, though I need more than one read. I get too 'close' to the book, meaning I need to take a step back, review how the chapters were structured to gain a full oversight of the subject, but that only takes me 10 minutes after reading the book. But it is something I actively have to do, otherwise that information starts getting mashed together, and twisted, swirling around in my head without proper categorisation. I ...hesistate to use that one book as the end all on that subject however, though I can do it. it doesn't feel comfortable as I feel I'm lacking control groups and peer-testing, if that make sense
    But, for the most part, despite its limitations, it gets me where I need to be and gives me enough mastery to do what I need to do with that subject.

    - My ...natural way? I read a bunch of books, without reviewing how the authors structured them. Did this with wicca - bought 10 beginner guides to get as many povs as possible on the subject, so I can freely associate and cherry pick how the subject will work for *me*, and the repetition helps me discover the many ways I can use that same information from different angles. It is like standing in the same spot, and take 8 different pics in the 8 different directions, so you get a full idea of what that spot looks like. I feel most safe when doing this, feeling like I can do anything with the material and extrapolate on what i know with educated guesses. It also takes the longest, unfortunately.
    You are so close to stealing some of my trade secrets, it's not funny.

    Will consider whether or not to steal from another source and elaborate to describe the multiple POVs and topological approximations.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  8. #48
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    AUDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL
    Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures
    Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths
    Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space
    Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
    Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
    Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
    Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer CANNOT SYNTHESIZE TO SAVE HIS LIFE
    Attends well to details-------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details CAN SEE THE BIG PICTURE OR DETAILS, BUT MUST SHIFT GEARS FROM ONE TO THE OTHER. CANNOT SEE INTERMEDIATE SCALE.
    Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well
    Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
    Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
    Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
    Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
    Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization ONE BIG PILE
    Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively
    Excels at rote memorization----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
    Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
    May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
    Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
    Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
    Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems
    Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
    Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
    Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics
    Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion
    Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, or technologically gifted
    Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  9. #49
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    AUDITORY-SEQUENTIAL------------------------------------VISUAL-SPATIAL

    Thinks primarily in words ------------------------------- Thinks primarily in pictures (honestly it's neither- very hard to explain)
    Has auditory strengths ---------------------------------Has visual strengths (I have both, though my auditory strength is memory related)
    Relates well to time ------------------------------------Relates well to space (I relate really well to space too, but I think time wins)
    Is a step-by-step learner ------------------------------ Is a whole-part learner
    Learns by trial and error---------------------------------Learns concepts all at once
    Progresses sequentially from easy to difficult material-----Learns complex concepts easily; struggles with easy skills
    Is an analytical thinker--------------------------------- Is a good synthesizer
    Attends well to details----------------------------------Sees the big picture; may miss details
    Follows oral directions well------------------------------Reads maps well ( do both, but I am better with maps)
    Does well at arithmetic----------------------------------Is better at math reasoning than computation
    Learns phonics easily------------------------------------Learns whole words easily
    Can sound out spelling words----------------------------Must visualize words to spell them
    Can write quickly and neatly ----------------------------Prefers keyboarding to writing
    Is well-organized--------------------------------------- Creates unique methods of organization
    Can show steps of work easily---------------------------Arrives at correct solutions intuitively (I CAN show steps easily once I truly know it, but in the beginning it's hard)
    Excels at rote memorization----------------------------- Learns best by seeing relationships
    Has good auditory short-term memory------------------- Has good long-term visual memory
    May need some repetition to reinforce learning----------- Learns concepts permanently; is turned off by drill and repetition
    Learns well from instruction----------------------------- Develops own methods of problem solving
    Learns in spite of emotional reactions------------------- Is very sensitive to teachers’ attitudes
    Is comfortable with one right answer--------------------Generates unusual solutions to problems (oh man I am the KING of this, have been since I was little)
    Develops fairly evenly---------------------------------- Develops quite asynchronously
    Usually maintains high grades ---------------------------May have very uneven grades
    Enjoys algebra and chemistry--------------------------- Enjoys geometry and physics (i'm baised- I am a chemist, I'd also argue the chemistry and physics should be switched)
    Learns languages in class-------------------------------Masters other languages through immersion (N/A)
    Is academically talented--------------------------------Is creatively, mechanically, emotionally, or technologically gifted
    Is an early bloomer-------------------------------------Is a late bloomer

    Well this ended up being really interesting. I know that I am an auditory learner. I learn best by listening to someone talk, and talking myself. When I take classes I NEED to go to lecture. If I miss it will be very difficult for me. However, talking by itself is useless. It's an essential part though. Reading is my last supplemenent for learning; I seldom if ever used text books in college. Ultimately though, I am a conceptualizer, and this shows that. I have been told that since I was young, and came to understand it when I was in high school.

    I am a big picture thinker, and I do not think in a straight line at all. Never have. I have been a science person since early childhood.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


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