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  1. #81
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I know a couple, and they don't. Sometimes the more mature ones realize they might have given offense, and can be charitable enough to qualify their statement or even apologise, but they almost cannot pussyfoot when they first open their mouths.

    I don't advocate censorship, although if I think someone is being idiotic, I guess I'm another INTP that will engage in shaming. Partly because I think that if this place is too welcoming of certain opinions, it will become a haven for them like Reddit, although I do not think bans are the solution. That could just be because of the expansion of Reddit, though.

    I do find that the bar sometimes gets raised too high with political correctness, though. Often, something gets called misogynistic / racist, and no one can really explain to me why that label applies in this example when it doesn't apply to a hundred other similar examples. For instance, "TV Show is racist for not having enough minorities, I'm in the group that TV Show is about, and I have lots of minority friends." But.... Similar TV Show had the same thing, and nobody complained about that. Anyway, if they did have a minority actor in the main cast, wouldn't that be tokenism, which is also bad? It makes no sense to me, and just gets used against things or people that aren't liked for reasons that have nothing to do with political correctness. Also, I think some people want to feel important and socially responsible without really having to do that much... hence, they spend a lot of time criticizing a show on premium cable.

    In conclusion, I think being mindful of self-expression is important to a degree, but I think it has begun to be taken too far by people who just have an axe to grind in general.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  2. #82
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    I don't view things in the term of politically correct or not when I'm communicating with people. It's more about respect and dignity. I can definitely see how people get offended when others use racial slurs in a belligerent context or just out of plain dismissiveness and scorn , since it's respectless and hostile. What people view as "Political correctness" is bad in that it doesn't allow people to express their opinions, it masks their opinions to avoid conflict. I'd rather live in an enviroment where everyones opinions and intentions are transparent.

    The tendency of "Political correctness" probably comes from a forced, insincere and misguided attempt by majority demographs to reconcile differences with minorities. It just seems fake and forced to me. Instead of tip-toeing over others feelings, say what you have to say and face up to the consquences.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  3. #83
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Someone using the moniker of a war criminal / mass murderer informs us that he doesn't care about being seen as PC.
    Thx for clearing that one up.
    Comedy gold.

    Which leads seamlessly to:

    "[Political correctness] is an often clumsy negotiation towards a formally inclusive language. There's all sorts of problems with it. But it's better than what we had before."
    Yep. Pretty much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #84
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue350 View Post
    Do you all concern yourselves with being politically correct?
    Hell no.

    However, I do put a lot of effort into being:
    (1) Professional
    (2) Polite
    (3) Stating things clearly

    That's simply how I am.
    I appreciate it when others interact with me as such, and so I project that - and it turns out that most people reciprocate how others treat them.
    Treat others as you wish to be treated...

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue350 View Post
    I wonder if feelers are more concerned with being politically correct.
    I honestly don't think so. Many of my friends are feelers and they are no more concerned about political correctness that I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue350 View Post
    I think people need to be offended every once in a while and changing every word I say to not offend people is a pain. I don't think it is that big of a deal.
    I don't know that people need to be offended every once in awhile, that seems unnecessarily rude.
    Are you saying that you hate "walking on eggshells"? As in having to put too much effort into not offending someone who is perhaps "overly sensitive?"
    If so, yeah I agree with you - that's a waste of time and effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue350 View Post
    Thoughts and opinions?
    Noted above.



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  5. #85
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Misconception with how Fe/Ti works, and what offends it. It's not specific language, but the circumstantial intent behind it (insults vs political correctness, I believe it was you who pointed out the distinction)-- whereas with Te/Fi types, contextual intent is seldom gauged, and it's always simply the literal language, and the universal validity of statements (independent of context), which are measured-- another side effect of this aspect is an irrational irritation with spelling errors, which you're no doubt familiar. Fe/Ti types typically jump straight to what people intended to spell, and they generally don't even notice the error.

    For instance, many aspects of political correctness are about neutralizing gender. "Server" instead of "waitress and waiter," and "person" instead of "man and woman." And gender sensitivity is dominantly the realm of the introverted feeler. Extroverted feelers almost get off on those kinds of inherent contrasts.
    There is a big difference between using gender-neutral words and avoiding terms like kike or nigger. Gender-neutral words simplify being factually correct, since servers, police officers, and hosts of other roles that used to be men-only are now filled by both men and women. I can think of no situations in which accuracy is compromised by calling someone a Kike rather than a Jew, unless one is directly quoting a bigot.

    You are right that Te does not care about intent, and looks mainly at the factual content of the word. This is why it has no patience with political correctness, just factual accuracy. I don't remember explaining a distinction between insults and political correctness. If anything, I think political correctness can easily run amok into people seeing insults behind every bush; meaning they readily assign ill intent to people who are simply ignorant of the current preferences for terminology. Otherwise, they would simply explain their preference, like @Urarienev's friend did.

    Words themselves cannot give offense. The offense comes from the negative thoughts and experiences people come to associate with them. Just look at the many ways we have referred to people of African descent over the last century. We still have the NAACP and United Negro College Fund, established at a time when Colored and Negro were considered acceptable, two terms no longer in favor.

    Insults are an interesting type of speech. People want in the abstract to define an insult by the intent behind it, but people who feel insulted will define an insult by how they perceive it. You can try to insult me but fail, either because I don't find the comment insulting, or I just cannot take it personally. Similarly, lots of people feel insulted by comments that are very well and kindly meant. This is why I prefer to focus on the actual content of the statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    However, I do put a lot of effort into being:
    (1) Professional
    (2) Polite
    (3) Stating things clearly
    If you make a point to do these things, the rest generally takes care of itself.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #86
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Someone using the moniker of a war criminal / mass murderer informs us that he doesn't care about being seen as PC.
    Thx for clearing that one up.
    Comedy gold.

    Which leads seamlessly to:

    "[Political correctness] is an often clumsy negotiation towards a formally inclusive language. There's all sorts of problems with it. But it's better than what we had before."
    Yep. Pretty much.

    .......... yes and? Still butthurt about mbti? I'm sorry on the behalf of the ghost of gaddafi, to the wahabi libyan government who are sending fighters to syria and iraq to ethnically cleanse those countries of shiahs and christians. Poor libyan wahabi-nutbars feelings got hurt.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  7. #87
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^who needs political incorrectness when they excel so much at the normal kind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is why it has no patience with political correctness, just factual accuracy.
    Those things are usually allied. There seems to be some conception amongst ignorant people that there is a marked difference between factual correctness and political correctness. In this way, the term does a disservice to the goals it is supposed to serve. As if we all know politically incorrect speech is actually true, but we don't use it to avoid hurting someone's feelings. Fail. Racism isn't wrong because it offends people, it's simply invalid. Racists are not merely inconsiderate, they are stupid. Why invoke political arguments, when purely technical ones will serve? Suppressing inconvenient / offensive truths is as much a mistake as allowing pernicious lies to go uncorrected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #88
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^who needs political incorrectness when they excel so much at the normal kind?
    What are you on about? Normal kind of what? Speech? I believe in speaking sense.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  9. #89
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    A few comments on the replies of @Coriolis to @anticlimatic...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There is a big difference between using gender-neutral words and avoiding terms like kike or nigger.
    Indeed - there is a HUGE difference.

    Words like "kike" or "nigger" are derogatory. Their use is not based on a desire to communicate in a civilized manner.

    Words like "server" and "officer" factually correct, and thus in my opinion - not subject to being written off as "needlessly politically correct language."

    Use of terms like "sexual assault" instead of "rape" is of unclear benefit to me. When you hear the word "rape" - it's pretty clear what that means; but when you hear "sexual assault" it is much more vague - it broadens the scope of what could have happened, and thus downplays the severity of the charge at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Gender-neutral words simplify being factually correct, since servers, police officers, and hosts of other roles that used to be men-only are now filled by both men and women.
    Agreed 100%. Nicely stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I can think of no situations in which accuracy is compromised by calling someone a Kike rather than a Jew, unless one is directly quoting a bigot.
    It's all a matter of intent, isn't it?
    Does the person uttering such words intend to insult and defame? Usually so, right?

    However, there are uses of other words that may or may not be construed as rude, depending on the delivery (and the reputation) of the speaker, as well as the company they are in when speaking as such.
    For instance, I know I would not be offended if a friend of mine who is Jewish referred to me as Catholic, and vice versa - I know my friends and my friends know me.
    Also, if a friend of mine who is black referred to me as white - I honestly wouldn't care, and vice versa - again, there is a mutual understanding and respect between us all.
    But if someone were to go off ranting about all the things they hated about Catholics, or Jews, or white people, or black people - then things go down an entirely different path.
    I offer the above simply as a "grey area" between two extremes for the sake of identifying one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are right that Te does not care about intent, and looks mainly at the factual content of the word. This is why it has no patience with political correctness, just factual accuracy.
    That's interesting. I'm a Ti user and am hell bent on sticking to factual accuracy, and have no patience for political correctness.
    I know there's more at play than just Te/Ti alone, just thinking out loud really...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't remember explaining a distinction between insults and political correctness. If anything, I think political correctness can easily run amok into people seeing insults behind every bush; meaning they readily assign ill intent to people who are simply ignorant of the current preferences for terminology. Otherwise, they would simply explain their preference, like @Urarienev's friend did.
    THIS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Words themselves cannot give offense. The offense comes from the negative thoughts and experiences people come to associate with them. Just look at the many ways we have referred to people of African descent over the last century. We still have the NAACP and United Negro College Fund, established at a time when Colored and Negro were considered acceptable, two terms no longer in favor.
    An interesting example of how organizations can exist far longer than the norms of the times they were established in.
    Companies, charities, churches, and organizations of all kinds can re-name themselves at any time.
    I wonder if the leadership of the NAACP and the United Negro College Fund have considered this option?
    Perhaps they don't feel those words to be an issue?
    Stuff to ponder...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Insults are an interesting type of speech. People want in the abstract to define an insult by the intent behind it, but people who feel insulted will define an insult by how they perceive it.
    WOW!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You can try to insult me but fail, either because I don't find the comment insulting, or I just cannot take it personally. Similarly, lots of people feel insulted by comments that are very well and kindly meant. This is why I prefer to focus on the actual content of the statement.
    Exactly.
    If I think someone said somebody said something that was rude/insulting to me - I give them the benefit of the doubt and ask them to re-state what they just said because I did not understand it.
    What they say after that is a great indication of their true thoughts/beliefs, and most importantly the intent of what they were saying to you - and that gives you the clarity needed to reply appropriately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If you make a point to do these things, the rest generally takes care of itself.
    Absolutely.
    It's always awesome reading your posts; thanks for sharing your insights.



    -Halla74
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  10. #90
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Political correctness is a Te/Fi thing. Unless something is directly hurting people's feelings in front of us, Ti/Fe users couldn't care less. It's basically a Te system that was created to guard the ever-so-easily butthurt Fi.
    If you are going to hate on Te, at least be accurate.

    Yes, even though most Te users wont admit it, they ARE protecting their fragile Fi.

    That part's right. Although others will probably deny it, and eventually make their shadows worse in doing so. I don't mind accepting that.

    However. To say that this "system" *cringes* was created by Te is inaccurate.

    Where's the manual? Oh that's right....there is no manual. Te needs a manual. Te MAKES manuals.

    Te does not care about this shit. They didn't make this system. I know that, cause it's a shitty system. It's a shitty system cause it ISN'T a system.

    It's based upon feelings

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Misconception with how Fe/Ti works, and what offends it. It's not specific language, but the circumstantial intent behind it (insults vs political correctness, I believe it was you who pointed out the distinction)-- whereas with Te/Fi types, contextual intent is seldom gauged, and it's always simply the literal language, and the universal validity of statements (independent of context), which are measured-- another side effect of this aspect is an irrational irritation with spelling errors, which you're no doubt familiar. Fe/Ti types typically jump straight to what people intended to spell, and they generally don't even notice the error.

    For instance, many aspects of political correctness are about neutralizing gender. "Server" instead of "waitress and waiter," and "person" instead of "man and woman." And gender sensitivity is dominantly the realm of the introverted feeler. Extroverted feelers almost get off on those kinds of inherent contrasts.

    If that still isn't enough evidence, just compare the amount of people in this thread that can empathize/sympathize with political correctness, and which direction their judging functions point.
    I have yet to talk to an INTP that looks for intent, and not specific language.

    I think that's inaccurate.

    They have Si. Ti and Si put together want to find the perfect words. If someone else doesn't explain themselves properly they get stuck on words.

    I don't know how they do it frankly, I don't have time to waste on that. Define the word, and move on.

    ****

    It's Fe and Fi that care the most about being politically correct.

    Those functions care about emotional content. And attaching emotional history to a word sounds like Fi. Could even be Si coupled with Fe.

    Which actually is who I see that has the most problems with political incorrectness, Fi's and SFJ's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Words themselves cannot give offense. The offense comes from the negative thoughts and experiences people come to associate with them.
    Ah you bring me back. Back to a time where I said the same thing. This is why I love reading your posts though.

    This used to be my argument. I still agree with it 100%. Words don't give offense. Perception takes offense.

    But now I have lightened up, and grown to understand that I at least don't need to offend my friends. And if my friend is taking offense, and I wanna keep my friend, I may want to alter the way I say some things. Whether it makes sense or not unfortunately.

    If you make a point to do these things, the rest generally takes care of itself.
    true story.

    The only thing I have against being politically correct is that the more we suppress our shadows the more they come out.

    So imo it's just making the problem worse. You can't eliminate words and ban things just cause you said so. And it's just suppressing peoples' true feelings. If they are a bigot, they're gonna be even more of one now.

    Until people get to the core of the problem, there's always going to be side effects.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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