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  1. #41
    Senior Member Abbey's Avatar
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    Personally, I find this statement false. Maybe I've read too much Ayn Rand, but everything has turned to black and white for me. Black is black, white is white, everyone needs to stop being sensitive.

  2. #42
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I disagree with any kind of discrimination and prejudicial action. I have no patience, however, with people who get wrapped around the axle about relatively trivial and superficial concerns, when there are far more serious related matters requiring attention. This seems to be at the root of our disagreement. You are defining political correctness to include everything people do to combat discrimination and prejudice. I am defining it, based on my experience of its usage, in a much more limited way as I already explained. This more limited definition focuses on what I consider a minor part of the problem relative to the other much more serious aspects of discrimination that remain.
    You are right, that is part of our disagreement. First of all, you seem to think that something you find trivial, IS trivial. This may not be the case, as not being a part of a persecuted minority yourself, you are likely to not even realize that something is a big deal to someone.

    And, actually, your definition is much more broad. As in, it includes discriminatory, prejudicial, and bigoted language but ALSO includes anything anyone might misconstrue as such, anything offensive for ANY reason, or even anything someone dislikes and prefers to mis-identify their feelings of frustration/annoyance as being offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am calling this out specifically because the factual correctness of statements is never beside the point. It always is the most important part of the point. Ideally statements are both factually correct and courteous. If something is factually incorrect, no amount of polite language or conciliatory expressions will compensate. If it is correct, the language, whether offensive or not, does not change that truth. In either case, the form of expression is secondary to the content.
    What I'm trying to say is, when something is factually correct, the truth value of the statement is not the part of the statement that is politically incorrect. The terminology with which you deliver the statements still matters. And while being tactful and/or courteous is usually a good idea (because turning off your audience rarely works to your advantage), being politically correct is a lesser burden. You can be rude and politically correct. You cannot, on the other hand, be tactful/courteous while being politically incorrect. There's a Venn diagram there that you don't seem to want to see/understand.

    Yes, there are such things as hard truths, and no amount of sugar coating will make them more palatable. Those truths exist on an entirely different level from political correctness, which generally concerns itself with terminology. If you stop confusing it for politeness or never offending/upsetting people, suddenly the barriers to delivering hard truths that you (and some other people, from both the proponent and opponent camps) have just imagined into being melt away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    By your own explanation here, political correctness tells us NOT to use the commonly accepted term for something, because that is offensive to (presumably a majority of) the target group.
    Nope, that doesn't follow. The "commonly accepted term" is not politically incorrect. Unless you think slurs for various groups are actually the commonly accepted terms for them (in which case, I wonder at the crowds you revolve in). Also, just as you get to tell people what to call you and what not to call you, groups can make their preferences known. Now, groups that are powerless/persecuted have very little clout to make others respect their preferences, so we have the much reviled "political correctness" guidelines in place specifically to give more weight to the preferences of groups that are most likely to be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Changing attitudes and debunking stereotypes through this sort of linguistic engineering just doesn't work, however, and tends to create resentment and confusion.
    It does work and it's done all the time. Usually it is done by powerful groups who have the resources to shout everybody else down, or even threaten them into doing what they are told. The only reason people feel "resentment and confusion" in response to rules about political correctness is because they are used to the privilege of not having to concern themselves with the groups in question, and suddenly feel like they've been thrust into a minefield (where these groups, btw, have always lived).

    Might I suggest that just because you don't see/understand the importance of something (like the effects of discriminatory language on its targets), doesn't make it unimportant, and just because you are unaware of something (like persecution), doesn't make it cease to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Definitions, and more importantly connotations, will evolve over time as more people adopt a new usage, but this cannot be forced. Stereotypes change by showing people how they fail to correpond to reality. This happens best through direct encounters with people in the subject group who provide living evidence of the stereotype's falseness.
    This is both untrue and naive. Do you not even realize how people's preconceptions affect their very perception? This is experimentally proven again and again and again. If you expect to see something, you will find any excuse to see it, or even invent it and retroactively edit your memories. And compartmentalization is a thing as well, where you keep seeing examples of people you know that don't fit the stereotype, but it either never occurs to you to re-examine the stereotype, or you just naturally assume that that even though this person is an X, they are a GOOD X.



    I realize you want to live in a world of perfect rationality, but this world simply doesn't exist. Human beings are not very rational. Yes, even people who are dedicated to rationality in all things -- they simply prefer to be unaware of how much irrational stuff they sweep under the rug of post-hoc rationalizations and compartmentalization. The solution here is not to do more of the same but to carefully observe phenomena (especially when they seem to defy your expectations), to be precise rather than vague and tease apart variables that seem to be connected/the same but are actually independent, and to engage in very careful thinking that takes into account the actual contents of situations rather than trying to create sweeping generalizations (under the guise of clarity and simplicity).
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  3. #43

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    I just want to get a reaction out of people. I don't really care if people think I'm racist or crazy. I will say what I want to say in order to elicit a reaction. People are always surprised. I think it's funny. I understand the need to be diplomatic and "choosing your words wisely" but I also like to poke fun at certain groups. I find stereotypes funny because they are either hit or miss. They either grasp the totality of a ethnic group or certain population or they don't. I'm respectful when I need to be and apologize if I take things way too far.

    The most important thing would be to find balance between using politically correct and incorrect terms. There is a time for all things.

  4. #44
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    When I am around friends and family I see no reason to be.

    When I am around strangers, I am honest while still polite.. if that's politically correct or not, then it is what it is. But I feel there's plenty of ways to communicate without being politically incorrect.

    But I'm not going to go into semantics about things either. Black people are black--they aren't all African Americans. I don't care if I am called White. Etc.
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  5. #45
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    I dont know how to be politcally correct. Sorry but dropping a bone everytime I open my mouth is par for the course. Somehow I haven't been lynched yet.

  6. #46
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Ideally I would be politically correct in using terms that specific demographics desire to be used in defining their group. Why not? I don't think my own preferences of words are the great holy grail that must be honored because I have this amazing right to BE ME!!

    I also try to extend some tolerance to people who are politically incorrect and will tend to attempt diplomacy when they clash. I know people revert to family speech when with family and I have sometimes cringed internally at those contexts, but more than being upset, I observe and wonder about it, and then place it in the mental drawer labeled: Bigot or No?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  7. #47
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    The problem I have with Politically correct is, that it is only context based. If politically correct was to catch up with globalization. Then I might see the use for it. But what the one guy thinks he is doing good on the one side, isn't always considered good on the other side.

  8. #48
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    The problem I have with Politically correct is, that it is only context based. If politically correct was to catch up with globalization. Then I might see the use for it. But what the one guy thinks he is doing good on the one side, isn't always considered good on the other side.
    Political correctness becomes a problem especially when it is given priority over factual or historical correctness. In choosing between equivalent names for something, I don't mind using the one the other person prefers, provided they share their preference.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #49
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    so question.. is anyone offended by these?

    and please don't answer about someone else - answer about yourselves:
    do derogatory nicknames and "hate speech" associated with your respective "protective groups" actually offend you?


    i've being called kike & had holocaust jokes thrown at me, jewish scambag - i've had angst about the organ trading rabbi's at NJ redirected at me a few years back, i've being called sand nigger & terrorist (because apparently from the white american perspective i just look arab), not to mention a never ending list of giant jokes & fat jokes... and yet, i don't remember being offended by any of it, at least not as an adult (or for that matter even as a teen). this is not to say i can't be offended - if my guard is down then personal attacks can and have certainly gotten to me, particularly in relations to my personal relationships. i'm not saying i have a particularly thick skin at all. but these sort of group title thingies.. i dont get how can you be offended by them, unless your sense of identity gets entangled with those or whatnot.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    If you mean caring about offending everyone and their mother, and absolutely not caring what comes out of my mouth - yes. If you mean using correct terms and proper language to describe or classify things, no.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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