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  1. #91
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There is a big difference between using gender-neutral words and avoiding terms like kike or nigger. Gender-neutral words simplify being factually correct, since servers, police officers, and hosts of other roles that used to be men-only are now filled by both men and women.

    You are right that Te does not care about intent, and looks mainly at the factual content of the word. This is why it has no patience with political correctness, just factual accuracy.
    Did you just contradict yourself? If the purpose of political correctness is to be 'factually correct,' therefore factually accurate, how could Te have no patience or appreciation for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    However. To say that this "system" *cringes* was created by Te is inaccurate.

    Where's the manual? Oh that's right....there is no manual. Te needs a manual. Te MAKES manuals.

    Te does not care about this shit. They didn't make this system. I know that, cause it's a shitty system. It's a shitty system cause it ISN'T a system.

    It's based upon feelings
    I see I should have been a little more politically correct in my explanation. Substitute 'top-down thinking' for Te, and 'general practice' for system. So sorry to ruffle your Fi up.... I mean your "personal feelings and sense of identity."

    The system, and it very much IS a system (as most things/ideas are), IS based on Fi-lings. You're absolutely right. But it is only so as an ends to the means-- the means is just language (Te), nothing in the means pertains at all to feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^Gah. The stupidity of the term "Fe/Ti type" laid bare. As if an ESFJ and an INTP would ever view political correctness in the same way...

    It is related Fe, as others have said.
    Which is why a Ti dom/aux will often attempt to subvert it. The Ti user is only interested in the degree of actual correctness, irrespective of polite conventions. The Fe user, by contrast, cares far more about the "political" part. To suggest they are motivated by the same driver is absurd.
    You seem to have very little understanding of how the functions work, and work together. I don't know any politically correct ESFJs, and categorizing behavior based on the dichotomy of judging functions (Te/Fi, Fe/Ti), regardless of individual order or strength, is fairly elementary.

  2. #92
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    I see I should have been a little more politically correct in my explanation. Substitute 'top-down thinking' for Te, and 'general practice' for system.
    Clarifying a point is different from political correctness. (Although I'm finding your sarcasm hilarious)

    Do you mind defining top-down thinking in the way that you specifically mean it?

    Cause I still don't know if what comes to mind when you say - top down thinking ...is the same when I say - top down thinking.

    So sorry to ruffle your Fi up.... I mean your "personal feelings and sense of identity."
    My feathers have not been ruffled silly goose.

    I just wanted you to clarify what you said. So that I can understand you better. I can't read your mind though... so it's up to you to explain it better. And that is really up to you caring to explain. You don't have to though (I know you know that.) And I don't mind if you ignore me. lol that's your choice homie.

    The system, and it very much IS a system (as most things/ideas are), IS based on Fi-lings. You're absolutely right. But it is only so as an ends to the means-- the means is just language (Te), nothing in the means pertains at all to feelings.
    Hmm. I hardly compare the two words "system" with "general practice." So if we are going with general practice, then it seems to lose it's value.

    Example: I called the printer retarded at work, on accident and ppl took unpredictable offense. (unpredictable meaning some ppl take offense and others don't)

    If this ^ is a general practice, then it's still an unpredictable practice. Therefore contradicting the fact that it's a general practice. lmao

    Why is it contradicting? Because the word "general," used in "general practice," implies that it's affecting or concerning all or most people.

    Unpredictable / = general. Therefore it's not a system. Unorganized ideas are not systems.

    ***

    To get back to the big picture....and your intent....

    What it seems to happen is: Fi dom has its feelings hurt, then brings inferior Te out.

    Is that what you're saying? ^ If so I agree.

    I'm disagreeing with you if you are saying the opposite. Cause the opposite doesn't happen.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
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  3. #93
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Those things are usually allied. There seems to be some conception amongst ignorant people that there is a marked difference between factual correctness and political correctness. In this way, the term does a disservice to the goals it is supposed to serve. As if we all know politically incorrect speech is actually true, but we don't use it to avoid hurting someone's feelings. Fail. Racism isn't wrong because it offends people, it's simply invalid. Racists are not merely inconsiderate, they are stupid. Why invoke political arguments, when purely technical ones will serve? Suppressing inconvenient / offensive truths is as much a mistake as allowing pernicious lies to go uncorrected.
    The highlighted is quite correct. In my experience, political correctness often entails suppressing these inconvient truths, as in refusing to acknowledge the emperor's true nakedness. As for racism, if by "invalid" you mean "incorrect", I agree. As with other forms of bigotry, it cannot be justified by observable reality. Political correctness goes beyond factual correctness, though, into that nebulous and shifting realm of what makes different people take offense. Consider, for example, a report stating that "X% of graduates from this University are colored". In the U.S. today the use of "colored" would be considered politically incorrect, however accurately it reports the race/ethnic origin of those graduates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Words like "kike" or "nigger" are derogatory. Their use is not based on a desire to communicate in a civilized manner.

    Words like "server" and "officer" factually correct, and thus in my opinion - not subject to being written off as "needlessly politically correct language."

    Use of terms like "sexual assault" instead of "rape" is of unclear benefit to me. When you hear the word "rape" - it's pretty clear what that means; but when you hear "sexual assault" it is much more vague - it broadens the scope of what could have happened, and thus downplays the severity of the charge at hand.
    To elaborate a bit: slurs like kike and nigger can still be accurate (i.e. the person described really does belong to that group), or inaccurate (e.g. calling a mainline Protestant a kike). If someone calls me a committee chairMAN, I don't really take offense, just see it as careless inaccuracy, much as if they had listed my employer or academic degree incorrectly. (Interestingly I am the chairperson of an international committee, and tolerate "chairman" as the least of my worries in coordinating the work of people representing several nations and languages. Ersatz Fe to the rescue.) Finally, regarding sexual assault and rape, I see room for both terms. Rape means something very specific, but sexual assault can take many forms. Employers, for instance, do well to emphasize that all types of sexual assault are unacceptable and will be handled accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    That's interesting. I'm a Ti user and am hell bent on sticking to factual accuracy, and have no patience for political correctness.
    I know there's more at play than just Te/Ti alone, just thinking out loud really...
    I can see Ti having no more patience with political correctness than Te, though perhaps getting there through a somewhat different process. As a Te user, my point was simply to explain how my own process works.

    BTW, thanks for the thoughtful response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Ah you bring me back. Back to a time where I said the same thing. This is why I love reading your posts though.

    This used to be my argument. I still agree with it 100%. Words don't give offense. Perception takes offense.

    But now I have lightened up, and grown to understand that I at least don't need to offend my friends. And if my friend is taking offense, and I wanna keep my friend, I may want to alter the way I say some things. Whether it makes sense or not unfortunately.
    I prefer not to offend my friends and associates as well. I consider this not political correctness but rather personal correctness: understanding the other person enough as a person to know what offends them, and what they value. There is no right and wrong to these preferences, any more than it is right to prefer apples to oranges. But if I know my friend dislikes apples, I won't offer them. Simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Did you just contradict yourself? If the purpose of political correctness is to be 'factually correct,' therefore factually accurate, how could Te have no patience or appreciation for it?
    Not at all. The problem with political correctness is that its requirements differ from those of factual correctness in ways that can be unpredictable and inconstant; in short, a fuzzy and moving target. It wouldn't be so bad if people were content to point out matter-of-factly that "we use 'black' now, not 'colored'". Too often, however, the molehill gets turned into a mountain to no benefit at all.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #94
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I prefer not to offend my friends and associates as well. I consider this not political correctness but rather personal correctness: understanding the other person enough as a person to know what offends them, and what they value. There is no right and wrong to these preferences, any more than it is right to prefer apples to oranges. But if I know my friend dislikes apples, I won't offer them. Simple as that.
    Yea I hear you. Sadly it took me a while to understand that not everyone likes apples...It's like I needed to understand why...and it's like you said...there is no getting to the bottom of it, it's not right or wrong, that they do or don't. It's just simply preference.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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  5. #95
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    You seem to have very little understanding of how the functions work, and work together. I don't know any politically correct ESFJs, and categorizing behavior based on the dichotomy of judging functions (Te/Fi, Fe/Ti), regardless of individual order or strength, is fairly elementary.
    Yes, your understanding is elementary, overly simplistic, even, and in this case, sadly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The highlighted is quite correct. In my experience, political correctness often entails suppressing these inconvient truths, as in refusing to acknowledge the emperor's true nakedness.
    ORLY? Do expand on what you mean (if it's not too incriminating).
    As for racism, if by "invalid" you mean "incorrect", I agree. As with other forms of bigotry, it cannot be justified by observable reality. Political correctness goes beyond factual correctness, though, into that nebulous and shifting realm of what makes different people take offense. Consider, for example, a report stating that "X% of graduates from this University are colored". In the U.S. today the use of "colored" would be considered politically incorrect, however accurately it reports the race/ethnic origin of those graduates.
    Ah well, I don't get too hung up on language, as you seem to. Though why you think "colored" is the height of "accuracy" escapes me...
    Perhaps, what you are failing to consider is "from whose perspective is this label accurate?".

    For me, the impetus behind being PC ought to spring from a desire to right wrongs, which is a mindset I can get behind. When we get into the territory of people who insist on using words like "womyn" instead of "women", I think the absurdity factor starts to overshadow the message, which makes it more of a liability than an asset.

    It wouldn't be so bad if people were content to point out matter-of-factly that "we use 'black' now, not 'colored'". Too often, however, the molehill gets turned into a mountain to no benefit at all.
    Wow. Try not to choke on that privilege, eh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #96
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ORLY?
    Tl;dr, though it seems you've mistaken Fi for Ti in typing yourself. It's fairly common, but not topic specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not at all. The problem with political correctness is that its requirements differ from those of factual correctness in ways that can be unpredictable and inconstant; in short, a fuzzy and moving target. It wouldn't be so bad if people were content to point out matter-of-factly that "we use 'black' now, not 'colored'". Too often, however, the molehill gets turned into a mountain to no benefit at all.
    Ah, fault is mine. I misread a sentence. I can't decide if PCism it's mostly motivated by inferior Te, or inferior Fi. On the one hand inferior Fi would the most vulnerable to even the most basic of daily slights, at least in terms of the amount of reactions it has, strength of those reactions aside. Tert Fi, at least in INTJs, is only really bothered by generalizations-- but is that due to the Ni-web? ISTJs seem unbothered by either. But on the other hand controlling language to control feelings is such a poorly thought out plan (then again, it's had fairly wide success), that it seems like a knee-jerk reaction from a weak tert/inferior judging function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Clarifying a point is different from political correctness. (Although I'm finding your sarcasm hilarious)

    Do you mind defining top-down thinking in the way that you specifically mean it?

    Hmm. I hardly compare the two words "system" with "general practice." So if we are going with general practice, then it seems to lose it's value.

    What it seems to happen is: Fi dom has its feelings hurt, then brings inferior Te out.

    Is that what you're saying? ^ If so I agree.

    I'm disagreeing with you if you are saying the opposite. Cause the opposite doesn't happen.
    Ok, we seem to be having trouble coming to terms with our terms. I assume we're aware that systems are not limited to the physical. All they require are connected elements, often through rules. For example, everyone has a 'system' of studying. Subjective to the individual-- could include coffee, tea, time regiments, etc. A "top-down" system, as most Te systems are, are created prior to implementation and use, often vicarious if not personally invented. Per the example above, a top-down study system would be reading 'how best to study,' and they implementing that procedure for yourself. A "bottom-up" system is a system that falls together on its own, and then is noticed (like the solar system, unless you believe in God). Per the study example, it would be like taking random study breaks in periodic intervals between other tasks, whenever one felt like it, and realizing after the big test that it worked very well. Organic; not forced. In the same way, political correctness is very 'top down;' forced, and unnatural.

    Jury is still out on the dom/tert Te/Fi thing. The weaker judging functions only seem to come out when there is no immediate solution to what's encountered for the dominant judging functions. If someone says a word that offends an individual-- a word that isn't inherently offensive (like waitress)-- without political correctness to cite through dom Te, it seems like a tert/inferior Fi would kick in and feel indignant about it, which could have been what was responsible for creating it in the first place.

  7. #97
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Tl;dr, though it seems you've mistaken Fi for Ti in typing yourself. It's fairly common, but not topic specific.
    Maybe you should read more and judge less, lest you be mistaken for an INTJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #98
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Maybe you should read more and judge less, lest you be mistaken for an INTJ.
    Judge first, perceive second. It's how I roll.

  9. #99
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Since you're all Ti/Te users, debating this currently. What would you guys say is factually incorrect about racism? What do you define as racism? Is racism acknowledging that races exist? Hierarchal thinking, discrimination, , belligerence towards other racial groups, xenophobia, or just linguistc descriptions?
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  10. #100
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Judge first, perceive second. It's how I roll.
    How inconvenient for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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