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  1. #1
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Default F mystery debunked

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    Last edited by Ivy; 04-26-2010 at 11:03 PM. Reason: at request
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #2
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    What's always interesting to me is when a T-based person can write an F-based rant while cloaking it in enough T-rationale so that they can fool themselves as to the origin of their discomfort, even if others can recognize it easily enough.

    Your discomfort with F-driven folks is just yet another personal value, and this response to your discomfort is not objective at all. If you were objective, you could step beyond your personal experience and give F people as much validity in regards to approaching life in their own instinctive way as you give your own more T-style approach. Assuming your own approach is more valid seems horribly myopic to me.

    So what terribly personal experience with F's who have failed you has preceded this particular rant, or is it just another periodic general culmination of your disappointment with F people?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #3
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What's always interesting to me is when a T-based person can write an F-based rant while cloaking it in enough T-rationale so that they can fool themselves as to the origin of their discomfort, even if others can recognize it easily enough.

    Your discomfort with F-driven folks is just yet another personal value, and this response to your discomfort is not objective at all. If you were objective, you could step beyond your personal experience and give F people as much validity in regards to approaching life in their own instinctive way as you give your own more T-style approach. Assuming your own approach is more valid seems horribly myopic to me.

    So what terribly personal experience with F's who have failed you has preceded this particular rant, or is it just another periodic general culmination of your disappointment with F people?



    Personal values are fine so long as you can clearly explain what your personal values are, why you have them and what role they will play in your relationship with the other person.

    Jennifer, I have doubts that you are a T. I ask that you refrain from posting in this thread again. I did not say that Fs have no value, only that I have a problem with them.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Personal values are fine so long as you can clearly explain what your personal values are, why you have them and what role they will play in your relationship with the other person.
    I don't think you do that.

    And if you do, you haven't yet realized it's more a sign of immaturity in regards to your personal development than any wonderful assess of the other person. The values one holds and how one chooses to express them and apply them to others is a litmus test for one's own progress in life.

    (Sorry, that's blunt; but I figure you're T enough to take it.)

    I mean, honestly, purposefully associating F people with Bin Laden, a known terrorist, speaking gibberish, out of all the examples you could have offered: That wasn't very T at all, that was definitely an emotional kneejerk reaction. Among other ways you chose to say things.

    Part of me feels like the thread belongs in the Graveyard because of its underlying intent. But maybe it's also good in the NT section, where you placed it.. more as an example of some of the stresses T's undergo when dealing with F people as well as some of the typical but unproductive reactions T's might have.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    And if you do, you haven't yet realized it's more a sign of immaturity in regards to your personal development than any wonderful assess of the other person. The values one holds and how one chooses to express them and apply them to others is a litmus test for one's own progress in life.

    (Sorry, that's blunt; but I figure you're T enough to take it.).
    This is the reason I asked you to stop posting here.

    It is a sign of immaturity to express your principles in clear, definite terms?

    Interesting...

    Another reason I ask you refrain from posting here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I mean, honestly, purposefully associating F people with Bin Laden, a known terrorist, speaking gibberish, out of all the examples you could have offered: That wasn't very T at all, that was definitely an emotional kneejerk reaction. Among other ways you chose to say things..).
    Bin Laden had nothing to do with the message. The message was all about speaking 'jibberish'.

    I have explained this in great detail. Jibberish is a term used to depict Fs failing to give logical structure to the thoughts they express. Is jibberish an exaggeration an inaccurate term to depict logically inconsistent statements? I do not think so, as arguments that are logically inconsistent are unsound by definition. They are simply non-sense. In order to make sense of them we need to restructure the argument and purge the logical inconsistencies.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I shall quote here what I also put in the INTP appreciation thread yesterday:

    they are limited in what they can see *Ti* and seem to have a problem with acknowledging they don't have the überperspective on things. I've also found them to be a type that can be very unaccepting of other kinds of types.
    Speaking of value judgements...

    Ironically, you reproach feelers for not being able to/not making the effort to hold up to your principle-based standard, but at the same time you refuse to acknowledge the validity of their perspective.

    It is incredibly frustrating how self-assured they may be and how on a heat of passion they may assert their opinions with great vehemence hardly paying attention to the fact that what they say has very little, if any basis in objective reality.
    More irony.

    You're entitled to rant, but you've hardly debunked the F mystery.

    As is the case for Fs with Ts, every T under the sun probably has had issues with F-style processing, myself included.

  7. #7
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    I shall quote here what I also put in the INTP appreciation thread yesterday:



    Speaking of value judgements...

    Ironically, you reproach feelers for not being able to/not making the effort to hold up to your principle-based standard, but at the same time you refuse to acknowledge the validity of their perspective.
    I am okay with whatever values they have (which often is compassion and the great fruit this yields) as long as they are able to state this clearly and stay consistent.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #8
    Senior Member WobblyStilettos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am okay with whatever values they have (which often is compassion and the great fruit this yields) as long as they are able to state this clearly and stay consistent.
    I think, if you believe that feelings/values can actually be consistent, let alone put into words in a satisfactory manner, then you are a long, loooong way off debunking the F mystery.
    Where you used to be, there is a hole in the world, which I find myself constantly walking around in the daytime, and falling into at night. I miss you like hell. ~Edna St. Vincent Millay

  9. #9
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I am okay with whatever values they have (which often is compassion and the great fruit this yields) as long as they are able to state this clearly and stay consistent.
    Yes, of course you are, because then they become similar to your own inner principles. But as you well know, there are many other functions besides Ti and they often are very different in their being fluid and whimsical rather than consistent and clear.

    It so happens that I had a conversation about Ti vs. other functions with my ESTP brother last night and it seems to be exceedingly difficult for Ti to go beyond itself because that would be almost self-destructive since it appears to be the foundation of your existence. It seems to be a vicious cycle of sorts. My bro said it was very interesting to see how people could have such a different stance in life nonetheless. Interestingly, I had the opportunity to link this theoretical exercise to practice this morning. My brother thought that I was lying to him because I had done something that to him seemed illogical and it took me an emotional outburst+reasoning and explanation to convince him that I was not lying, but had simply done something that didn't follow a+b=c. He commented on something specifically INTJ the moment before, so we learn a lot from one another.

  10. #10
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I do not think so, as arguments that are logically inconsistent are unsound by definition.
    Only if the conclusion is inconsistent with the premises. If the premises themselves are inconsistent then the argument is trivially sound because there is no instance where such an argument can have (all) true premises, and a sound argument is defined as an argument such that if the premises are true, then the conclusion cannot be false.



    Edit: Trivially valid. Corrected by Orangey.

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