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  1. #191
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    To everyone assuming they know BlueWing's intentions: Why are you guys assuming? You can guess but you can't know for sure. You're not inside of him. A lot of things point in certain directions but still, you can never know for sure.

    I'm not assuming anything.

    I mean in another post I said that I assumed he was venting but I really meant to say that if I were to assume then that's what I'd assume. I really don't know what his goal is.
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  2. #192
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that T's only respond to the actual wall, whereas F's merely respond to their own interpretation of the wall. This is false, everyone has their own interpretation of the wall, F and T affect what it is you prefer about the wall. As do all the other functions.



    Once again this can be applied to all people. What a person focuses on is going to be wildly affected by their moods, and moods are unrelated to F and T functions. (look at the calm and limbic traits in another personality theory)



    A theme your post seems to have is F functions=emotional functions. This is not true, F functions have no relation to emotions, they relate to values and feelings. Values and feelings are constant I assure you, they are also based on, or at least strongly related to, reality. An F who is not acting on these values is called an unhealthy F, because they cannot actually see/stop themselves defying their own values.

    T's are based on principles, a rule which helps them achieve a particular thing and that they see as true, they gather these together and normally aim to discover more. F's on the other hand, set out values, which admittedly can seem arbitary (e.g I want to be a kind person) and then set out to achieve them or come closer to them.

    Of course, values strongly influence T's, and principles the same to F's.



    Again this is an emotionally driven person. Anyone who is currently being driven by emotions is going to act like this (depending on the emotion of course), regardless of F and T functions.



    See above.



    More false F stereotypes. F's can be cold, rational, insensitive and uncaring. T's can not care about your theories and thoughts, be completely emotional and irrational, and sit there crying to Forest Gump.



    And the same again.

    tl;dr I recommend you rethink (refeel?) your definition of F and T functions.

    yuuuup.
    true.
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  3. #193
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Silencing the opposition, not a fallacy, but its not very respectful.
    Well, it may not be a fallacy, but it is still means he is failing to perform critical thought. Part of being a critical thinker means having the ability to acknowledge other points of view. It doesn't mean you have to agree, you just have to acknowledge them. That's obviously not possible when you are barring people from providing their point of view.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #194
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Hasty generalization. Your describing an unbalanced F in a bad mood. Strawman fallacy as well, which makes sense because if you're attacking an entire group (F's) your view is going to be distorted (you can't accurately describe an entire group of people, especially just when its the F part of Mbti when Fs will be very different depending on other Mbti features.).
    This would have been the case if I indeed was generalizing, or trying to explain how all Fs work, or how Fs in general tend to be. I have already covered this point. Review earlier posts..)

    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Weak Analogy fallacy with the intent of damaging the opposition (partial Ad Homineum because you're referencing Osama bin Laden when talking about Feelers)..).
    The analogy is strong. The point was 'jibberish'. Arguments containing logical inconsistencies can indeed be categorized as jibberish. They cannot be sound in their own right, they're simply non-sense. This is an apt criticism for the phenomenon I have cited earlier. Bin Laden image was not part of my argument. You may as well turn off the video and focus strictly on the audio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Once again the 2 mentioned before. You're obviously describing a Specific person with the characteristic "F" that you're upset with, however you continue flagrantly throwing the word "they" around.)..).
    See above for how the term 'F' and they were used.

    Also..

    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    No True Scotsman fallacy.)..).
    Comment to Jennifer was not an argument. Was a personal hunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    You could have made this thread ALOT more constructive very easily. You could have described the specific F or Fs that you are having problems with (maybe even their specific types), described why you have the problems with them (not in heated rant fashion), and then asked everyone here (not just T's) what we think about it and if there is a possible solution or understanding to be formed.

    So long as you think of 'persons' and 'human behavior' when you think of 'Fs' or any other type, you will always be off the mark.

    See my essay 'Problems of Typology'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Here are three such instances where he qualifies some of what he is saying. He seems to be working on definitions that are different than what most readers of MBTI function information are familiar with. That is why I say that he is a little guilty of the fallacy of proof by assertion- at first he simply states his definitions without providing evidence or reasoning, but then comes back and adds to them a little more each time someone questions him. That is probably why his original post inspired a lot of outrage.

    I will also say in his defense that although a lot of the OP was fallacious, so also were a lot of the comments it received. Argumentum ad Hominem, of both the abusive and tu quoque (especially this one) flavors, seemed to be a favorite among the majority of respondents (not all).
    I have provided a very detailed rationale for how I have defined my terms in the essay of 'problems of typology'. Those who are familiar with my earlier posts should be well aware of how my system is distinct from MBTI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The relevance of what -- that he's a self-promoter interested in getting others to buy into his ideas, rather than a communicator interested in conveying his ideas in ways that his audience can digest?

    I think it's obvious.

    You note that the disagreement here is not about what is possible but what is plausible.

    I think that a two-year failure to communicate with two general audiences would make the former case seem much like plausible than that latter. Regardless of BW's intent (which could be to constructively help "humanity" or whatever, I can see that being some sort of undeveloped and raw desire within him), his ego rather than his audience is still the primary beneficiary of his efforts.

    How do we know this? Because he's consistently unwilling to accommodate the needs of his audience. Instead, he satisfies his own personal needs in the communication. The pattern doesn't lie. HE wants to feel like HE is contributing; that's the priority.

    Until the ego gets out of the way, the communication will not be effective.
    My ego mainly wants to learn. Its all in favor of my systems that I worship. I communicate with others, consciously and unconsciously to further my thought experiments. Most of the time I am baffled by the emotionally motivated responses I get. I truly do not take people into the equation. Its just an idea, cold and dispassionate as far as I am concerned, no need to dramatize it.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 07-17-2008 at 01:17 PM. Reason: merged posts
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #195
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I have provided a very detailed rationale for how I have defined my terms in the essay of 'problems of typology'.
    I realize that now. Unfortunately I was unaware that I needed to have familiarized myself with your 'literature' before posting in this thread. Perhaps in the future you should attach a list of required reading.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #196
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    My ego mainly wants to learn. Its all in favor of my systems that I worship. I communicate with others, consciously and unconsciously to further my thought experiments. Most of the time I am baffled by the emotionally motivated responses I get. I truly do not take people into the equation. Its just an idea, cold and dispassionate as far as I am concerned, no need to dramatize it.
    I'm calling "bullshit." Ideas serve a purpose, too. MBTI theories end their analyses at this point and will have you believe that NTs or INTPs juggle ideas for their own sake and use people as tools to refine theories. (I've read the descriptions, too, Seahorse.) It's bullshit. There's always a motive, and people like us who are addicted to modeling are chasing after something as well: relief.

    Not only that, but I'm not convinced that people are just tools to help you refine your ideas. You might use them as tools on occasion, but you still have social needs that rise above your need to model ideas, however dirty or impure you think they might be.

    This isn't dramatizing, it's analyzing and observing the bigger picture.

  7. #197
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    He's testing to see how well his book will sell.

  8. #198
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Well, BlueWing, it seems more like you're just using every method in the book to convince yourself, and possible even others, that you're right.
    That's really not the same as seeking to learn.

    If I'm right about this, then you are making a mistake characteristic of one of your functions. No, not Thinking. I mean Intuiting. You have the idea that you just spring up in your head, and then you devise "reasoning", and do "observations", that really serves no other aim then to confirm what you've already thought of. Freud was one of the worst perpatrators of this.

    If you are really seeking to learn, then you're supposed to let the debating process build the idea. Not whip up the idea, and then go through the whole debating process defending and pushing it. That would be persuasion, not learning.

    You're complaining about what are effectively the subjective qualities of Feeling, but you forget that while Feeling is the subjective mode of judgement, Intuition is the subjective mode of perception, and you are succumbing to the worst kind of Intuitive subjectivity.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #199
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Magic Poriferan;246073]Well, BlueWing, it seems more like you're just using every method in the book to convince yourself, and possible even others, that you're right.
    That's really not the same as seeking to learn.

    If I'm right about this, then you are making a mistake characteristic of one of your functions. No, not Thinking. I mean Intuiting. You have the idea that you just spring up in your head, and then you devise "reasoning", and do "observations", that really serves no other aim then to confirm what you've already thought of. Freud was one of the worst perpatrators of this.

    If you are really seeking to learn, then you're supposed to let the debating process build the idea. Not whip up the idea, and then go through the whole debating process defending and pushing it. That would be persuasion, not learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You're complaining about what are effectively the subjective qualities of Feeling, but you forget that while Feeling is the subjective mode of judgement, Intuition is the subjective mode of perception, and you are succumbing to the worst kind of Intuitive subjectivity.
    I have a very strong feel you're right! Both of you, you and Edahn! This may change when I wake up this morning in 2 hours! Yes, Intuition is a subjective mode of judgment, or perception, whatever it will feel to me then!

    Obviously if I want to learn I dont just state an idea and think about it, I seek to find out whatever most people FEEL the answer is, and change accordingly!

    Yes, yes it is all about the overwhelming need for acceptance, this is why we talk ideas in the first place, for the 'social need' as Edahn very eloquently puts it! The social need eclipses all other needs one may have, it is the underlying drive for all our activity, no matter how much anyone may deny this, I have a very strong FEEL this is it. Absolutely! Every other 'need' we may have is but a disguise for this one! Its a disguise for this 'dirty impulse'. Logical rigor, careful thought..etc..its all obviously non-sense. It is all a matter of Feel after all! Everything we do, starting from basic 2 plus 2 make 4 to complex proofs of mathematics are but an expression of this wondrous FEEL which is a disguise for our dirty impulse social need! Whoever Loves the truth more shall please us most with his discoveries! The mathematician who appeases our prejudices most of all is the one with all the right answers! Who could of thought!? I just cant be wrong, let noone dare say otherwise, unless of course I wake up on a different side of the bed soon..

    And Magic! You're my favorite INTP on the board! Noone has pointed out such noble truth with such picturesque rigor.

    Oh yes, Edahn, this isnt dramatizing either. This is just a response to the picture with a very cool, rigor seeking, detached eye, that I put forth on occassion! Who knows, maybe the next day, I'll take image A from self 12, Image Z from shelf 561, and Image XTZ from shelf 1021, scramble them all together and call it VERY careful, consistent and focused observation aimed at putting a whole coherent view together.

    What..what..what are you all looking at me for! I have a very strong FEEL this is the truth, 'BULLSHIT', 'BULLSHIT' I call on to all of you..who may disagree in advance! I sense it! I sense it! This is all part of me THOROUGH OBSERVATIONS! OBSERVATIONS I TELL YOU! Dont you dare question how I come up with these observations! I sense it and thats period!

    Yes, magic again,

    Whoever does this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If you are really seeking to learn, then you're supposed to let the debating process build the idea. Not whip up the idea, and then go through the whole debating process defending and pushing it. That would be persuasion, not learning.
    .
    Obviously does not love the truth! How dare him be right, who GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO BE RIGHT, lets look around here, does such a person here think HE COULD BE RIGHT? If everyone feels this way, how could the truth be to the contrary!

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I'm calling "bullshit." Ideas serve a purpose, too. MBTI theories end their analyses at this point and will have you believe that NTs or INTPs juggle ideas for their own sake and use people as tools to refine theories. (I've read the descriptions, too, Seahorse.) It's bullshit. There's always a motive, and people like us who are addicted to modeling are chasing after something as well: relief. .
    Indeed! Descriptions, descriptions! All they are! Make sure when you go to think about this again YOU NEVER DARE TAKE ANY SYSTEM IN MIND..THOSE ARE JUST IDEAS..THEY ALL BUT SERVE A DIRTY PURPOSE TO COVER OUR PERSONAL NEED WHICH IS ALL OUR ACTIONS ARE ABOUT! Remember, a person is always doing more than just collecting information and making decisions, he is telling jokes, picking his noses, laughing etc..this is what it is..no need to analyze it further or even dare thinking to systemize! What more grievous sin could there be than putting such a HOLY matter as 'FEEL' and 'people' into Categories. Any impersonal thought must be sheer grave wickedness! How dare them, philosophers, scientists, mathematicians, Jung..have the obstreperousness to let us sink thus far! They have left us bereft of all our human dignity.

    Bow to our revrt to romanticism and stone age! FEEL ITS POWER! DONT THINK ABOUT IT! Remember, next time you dare THINK, Think the 'DIRTY SECRET', that ought to teach you...
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #200
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'd be the last person to say that truth was a matter of giving into popular sentiment. That has nothing to do with my point about learnng through the process of debate. It has nothing to do with my point about going too far to confirm your own beliefs.

    I'm disgusted by your sarcastic floundering. It is indicative of someone who is defeated and denies defeat.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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