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  1. #181
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night
    You don't have to agree with me. My opinion is mine alone.
    It's less a matter of agreement than a matter of acknowledging the plausibility of what you've suggested.
    Last edited by disregard; 07-16-2008 at 11:40 AM. Reason: .

  2. #182
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    What is the relevance, Jennifer?
    The relevance of what -- that he's a self-promoter interested in getting others to buy into his ideas, rather than a communicator interested in conveying his ideas in ways that his audience can digest?

    I think it's obvious.

    You note that the disagreement here is not about what is possible but what is plausible.

    I think that a two-year failure to communicate with two general audiences would make the former case seem much like plausible than that latter. Regardless of BW's intent (which could be to constructively help "humanity" or whatever, I can see that being some sort of undeveloped and raw desire within him), his ego rather than his audience is still the primary beneficiary of his efforts.

    How do we know this? Because he's consistently unwilling to accommodate the needs of his audience. Instead, he satisfies his own personal needs in the communication. The pattern doesn't lie. HE wants to feel like HE is contributing; that's the priority.

    Until the ego gets out of the way, the communication will not be effective.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #183
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Jennifer's right. My IMs with him show nothing to the contrary.

    And yes, I say that knowing full well that when I get home from work tonight, there's going to be a series of messages attacking my assessment skills.

    I welcome them.
    we fukin won boys

  4. #184
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    It's less a matter of agreement than a matter of acknowledging the plausibility of what you've suggested.
    My plausibility?

    I don't think you want this fight, Dana. Your weapons are dull.

  5. #185
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I'm not even fighting with you... wtf?

    Don't be so defensive.

  6. #186
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Seriously, Night. How could you have possibly interpreted my post to be a personal attack or an attack of any sort?

  7. #187
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    We're clearly not speaking to the same concepts.

    This issue is growing stale. Let's move on.

  8. #188
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Let me clarify what I said..

    I wasn't simply agreeing with you... I was acknowledging the plausibility of what you suggested...

    Meaning, I do not know for *sure* that what you are saying about BW's intent is true, as neither of us are BW; given that, I acknowledge that it is quite likely that the reason you have given to be true.

    But, that was before Jennifer posted, and that seems even more likely.

  9. #189
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Then, the error is mine.

    I apologize for the misconception.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Thus when they say the wall is red, they are not talking about the actual wall, but about their feelings about the wall.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that T's only respond to the actual wall, whereas F's merely respond to their own interpretation of the wall. This is false, everyone has their own interpretation of the wall, F and T affect what it is you prefer about the wall. As do all the other functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    And of course whether or not they be saying it is red depends on their mood and the moods of those around them. It all depends on whether or not they like red or those they converse with do, and of course a myriad of subjective emotional implications that go along with this.
    Once again this can be applied to all people. What a person focuses on is going to be wildly affected by their moods, and moods are unrelated to F and T functions. (look at the calm and limbic traits in another personality theory)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Some claim that Feeling is a rational function, that it sticks to values and the Feeler does what he believes in. That is not true at all, as too often we hear them say 'but I don't feel like it' or 'I am not in the mood' or just simply 'doesn't feel right'. If he were acting out on principles he would say, this is what I believe in, this is a matter of fact, completely objective, and this is what I shall do. Doing this requires a tough-minded attitude with and aptitude for objective reality which manifestly requires a Thinking faculty. Feeling does not have any firm principles as it is this profoundly infused in the flavor of amorphous emotions which are simply moosh.
    A theme your post seems to have is F functions=emotional functions. This is not true, F functions have no relation to emotions, they relate to values and feelings. Values and feelings are constant I assure you, they are also based on, or at least strongly related to, reality. An F who is not acting on these values is called an unhealthy F, because they cannot actually see/stop themselves defying their own values.

    T's are based on principles, a rule which helps them achieve a particular thing and that they see as true, they gather these together and normally aim to discover more. F's on the other hand, set out values, which admittedly can seem arbitary (e.g I want to be a kind person) and then set out to achieve them or come closer to them.

    Of course, values strongly influence T's, and principles the same to F's.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Very often their goal is to be liked by others, and when relating to others they utter total non-sense and play the hurt feelings card when Thinkers do not reciprocate. Of course, we ought to know that what they say has nothing to do with making sense or matters of fact, its all about how others will react to them and what feelings it will evoke. Words are simply extensions of gestures like smileys, nods, head-shaking, laughter and so on. When they express what seems to be an objective opinion, especially about people, this has nothing to do with objective reality, it is inevitably an expression of their feelings. When I listen to this, it is reminiscent of..
    Again this is an emotionally driven person. Anyone who is currently being driven by emotions is going to act like this (depending on the emotion of course), regardless of F and T functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    It is incredibly frustrating how self-assured they may be and how on a heat of passion they may assert their opinions with great vehemence hardly paying attention to the fact that what they say has very little, if any basis in objective reality. That would be fine as long as they acknowledged their claim as an expression of sentiment, but they pass it off as fact. This is what 'your feelings are valid' cant is about. We are supposed to budge into the unreasonable expectations they impose upon us as if what they said was a matter of fact, matter to be taken seriously. They hardly see a problem with changing their mind or maintaining the exact opposite of what they claimed earlier, as once more their claims are but expressions of sentiment, they bare no rational judgment, and their feelings may change like weather. As after all where could they get a backbone if not from solid, dispassionate judgment. A kind of judgment that treats ideas as true or false, matters of fact and not matters of mood-what we tend to associate with the Thinking function. This they sorely lack.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    They pride themselves on sensitivity to other people, fear offending others, but strikingly fail to realize that many people (like me) are deeply offended when they do not take their thoughts seriously. (When a T shares a well thought out perspective or a solution to a problem, they just go on about their personal experiences on the matter or how they still feel the same way, in effect not having presented any evidence of reflection upon the claims they are responding to.)Thoughts that other people have devoted much effort to. Fail to honor the personal values of some people concerning consistency and clarity, simply do not understand that for some of us it is important for situations to make sense. Fail to honor the value of truth, as because some of us need for the situation to make sense it is more important to call it like it is as opposed to wallowing in heart-warming fantasy. As well as they fail to communicate clearly (again the value of the need to make sense) because they're too caught up in making it sound 'nice'.
    More false F stereotypes. F's can be cold, rational, insensitive and uncaring. T's can not care about your theories and thoughts, be completely emotional and irrational, and sit there crying to Forest Gump.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Fs...please dont respond...I dont want to know if its a sad day..I dont want to know if your other INTP friend appreciates F..I dont want to know about how it will feel good if I do X...I just want a simple, impersonal reply to the above statements.
    And the same again.

    tl;dr I recommend you rethink (refeel?) your definition of F and T functions.

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