User Tag List

First 41213141516 Last

Results 131 to 140 of 234

  1. #131
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    ABCD
    Enneagram
    4 sx/so
    Socionics
    SEI
    Posts
    1,040

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In the typical F spirit, you use the 'logical fallacy' in an emotional context, not in the linguistically precise. Point one of them out.
    The false generalizations that Mike was talking about. Those were the logical fallacies I was talking about. Sorry. It was more of stating that you're wrong instead of proving you wrong. Bad word choice on my part.
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  2. #132
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    All intps are lame, cold heartless bastards.
    Your comma use intrigues me, do you mean that none of us have cold hearts?
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  3. #133
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    ABCD
    Enneagram
    4 sx/so
    Socionics
    SEI
    Posts
    1,040

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    This is quite possibly the best thread I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
    lol.
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  4. #134
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cn1234567890 View Post
    That's silly. I don't see anything bad with being T or F they both have their pros and cons but I'm sure if someone made a "T's and what is wrong with them" thread, T's would rationally explain why it was false and how T was useful. It's the same thing as the F's arguing about why we have merits too, but we do it perhaps more passionately and abstractly because we are F's. Fs are sensitive, and by knowing that we are sensitive and choosing post this anyways, you are being a "cold" T. Everyone is just playing out their role, there's no reason to be disrespectful or make generalizations about every F or every T though.

    As for values and being consistent with them, which you were talking about at the beginning, everyone makes mistakes. I have seen F's and T's do crappy things to one another. I have seen T's go back on their word, thinking they know exactly what they wanted, only to realize they made a mistake but in the mean time have hurt everyone around them. I've seen T's leave people in the shittiest of situations because they didn't have the empathy to help them out and "couldn't deal with it". I have also seen F's leave people because in their "flavor of amorphous emotions which are simply moosh" they didn't know what to do with the person.

    In the moosh, as you call it, there is some value and backbone that should be acknowledged. If you put an F in a situation where they "feel" they should help and be there for a person, they will do it every time and they will see it through until their F tells them okay. This is what you T's might call loyalty. We can put ourselves in other people's shoes and treat others or react to them in a way that does not offend them. This is what T's could call respect. We may not have it in our heads every time, especially when we are young, but over time it grows and matures...

    I didn't expect to write that much but there it is... I hope it's impersonal enough for you..
    When a Feeler is criticized, he feels personally undermined. When a Thinker is criticized (should he really be good at thinking), he will step back and analyze the criticism to see if it is true. If it is true, he will make a mental note to work on it and fix it, if he finds it important. If it is false, he will simply dismiss it.

    Hence, for a good Thinking type we have 3 reactions.

    A)Analyze and acknowledge the criticism is true and points out a defect which needs to be fixed. Goes on to fix it.
    B)Analyze and acknowledge that the criticism is true but does not contain a defect that needs to be fixed, therefore ignores it. (For example, such a defect is often a lack of social graces or sensitivity)
    C)Analyze and acknowledge that the criticism is false, therefore dismiss.

    You claim that a Feeler will empathize with a hurt person and therefore be determined to help him, and this somehow shows he has a solid core. It is absolutely true that the Feeler will likely help the hurt person with seemingly fierce determination. But this does not show that he has a solid core for the following reasons.

    He is inspired by emotion. Today he feels like helping him because he is in a good mood and because he may like the person. Tomorrow when he is in a bad mood and if his father hates that person, or that person did him harm, he may not.

    Again, many say Feelers strive to live their life in accordance to their personal values very strictly. If that were the case the Feeler would say. I value helping people, this is a chance for me to do so, so I shall do so now.

    Many Feelers do think like this, but that is because they have solidifed their values with Thinking. They have given themselves a solid core. I can think of many examples for this in the non-radical Feeling types, such as the EFP and the IFJ. Many INFJ philanthropists like Mother Theresa and Ghandi have gone out to the world to live out their values. This is not because of Feeling, or because they felt so strongly about, but because they have translated their values into something solid. They knew exactly what they thought and what they valued, and their mood swings or other emotional, or relational circumstances did not stop them. I commend this kind of 'Feeling'.

    Another example is Bill Clinton (ENFP), who in his political practices knew exactly what to say to people in order to elicit this or that particular reaction. What to do to win the campaign. What to do to live out his values and make his vision come true. His strong tertiary Thinking faculty allowed him to provide structure for his values and visions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This conflates the "thinking" function with cognition in general. Here you have set up the umbrella of "thinking" to go over top of "feeling" by suggesting that the result of a feeling decision requires further "thinking" interpretation in order to make itself understood by the subject. Were we to represent this in a Venn diagram, the feeling set would sit entirely within the thinking set. I think that this is incorrect because if it were true, then the feeling function would not be an autonomous function. And if feeling is not an autonomous function, then we wouldn't be able to identify (or isolate) a feeling preference in anyone except for those who are completely irrational.

    No function is autonomous. In order for you to motivate your thinking, you need to Feel. For instance, when I get the right answer in a logic problem, I receive a feeling of affirmation.

    Secondly, as David Hume famously argued that it is the passions that motivate us to act, not thoughts. You will not live out your intellectual ideas if they are not in any way relevant to you. For example, if it was only Thinking, or only an intellectual notion, all you'd see is 2 plus 2 is 4.(As a small step of a complex mathematical problem) But so what? Why would you continue solving this problem further if you, personally, did not have an interest in mathematics.

    Secondly, Intuition requires Sensation. In order for you to dream, or use your imagination, you need to rely on concrete information you have collected. Yes, you may imagine elephants with 60 feet and 50 tails, and many things that do not exist. But it would not be possible for you to get started on such reveries if you have not seeing anything in the concrete world which could inspire your visions.


    Can Sensation be autonomous without Intuition. No, if we were to just sense, smell, or see, we would not even develop an instinct which may lead us to further sense, see or smell. We unconsciously pick off data (as well as animals do) which is stored in our minds, or intuitions which is later enacted when evoked by a particular sensation. Consider the example of a dog salivating after hearing a bell. This is because the dog possesses intuition to some degree. The dog, in the back of his mind has a vague idea stored associating the noise of a bell with the sensation of food.

    Can Judgment exist without perception? No, because if we did not perceive anything, it would not be possible for us to make any assessments, as we would simply be out of working material. Can perception exist without judgment? No, because consciously or unconsciously, wilfully or not, we make notes of our environment. Even on as rudimentary of a level as a dog being forced to connect the idea of a bell ringing with food. We all make judgments whether we like it or not. A phenomenon to exemplify this would be how a child who has hung around racists for a long time (who has not developed his judgment) inevitably ends up later making racist judgments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    The false generalizations that Mike was talking about. Those were the logical fallacies I was talking about. Sorry. It was more of stating that you're wrong instead of proving you wrong. Bad word choice on my part.
    I was not making generalizations. As I said to Mike, I did not state that all Feelers are likely to commit the blunders I've cited. But there is potential for this when Feeling is not properly accomodated by thinking.

    The interesting phenomenon to take note of here, which is often observed in very unhealthy dominant Feelers (IFP and EFJ), is that they lapse into pure emotion. Loosing all sense of structure and coherence in their thoughts.

    However, a good Feeling faculty is able to use logic to make sense of their values.

    What could a paralle to this be? We need passion in order to have any energy to act. Even to act in the least energy consuming endeavor possible, such as contemplation. A thinker who is divorced from feeling will simply stop functioning, will stall like a car with de-activated engine. He will be very rigid and frozen in his ways as he will not have the energy to continue thinking. Feeling will be enslaved to his faculty of thinking. It will not be used to provide energy to re-think matters which he may be wrong about, but will merely be used to provide the energy to affirm the doctrines which he has arrived at in the past.
    Last edited by MacGuffin; 07-15-2008 at 01:13 PM. Reason: merged posts
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #135
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    No function is autonomous. In order for you to motivate your thinking, you need to Feel. For instance, when I get the right answer in a logic problem, I receive a feeling of affirmation.

    Secondly, as David Hume famously argued that it is the passions that motivate us to act, not thoughts. You will not live out your intellectual ideas if they are not in any way relevant to you. For example, if it was only Thinking, or only an intellectual notion, all you'd see is 2 plus 2 is 4.(As a small step of a complex mathematical problem) But so what? Why would you continue solving this problem further if you, personally, did not have an interest in mathematics.

    Secondly, Intuition requires Sensation. In order for you to dream, or use your imagination, you need to rely on concrete information you have collected. Yes, you may imagine elephants with 60 feet and 50 tails, and many things that do not exist. But it would not be possible for you to get started on such reveries if you have not seeing anything in the concrete world which could inspire your visions.


    Can Sensation be autonomous without Intuition. No, if we were to just sense, smell, or see, we would not even develop an instinct which may lead us to further sense, see or smell. We unconsciously pick off data (as well as animals do) which is stored in our minds, or intuitions which is later enacted when evoked by a particular sensation. Consider the example of a dog salivating after hearing a bell. This is because the dog possesses intuition to some degree. The dog, in the back of his mind has a vague idea stored associating the noise of a bell with the sensation of food.

    Can Judgment exist without perception? No, because if we did not perceive anything, it would not be possible for us to make any assessments, as we would simply be out of working material. Can perception exist without judgment? No, because consciously or unconsciously, wilfully or not, we make notes of our environment. Even on as rudimentary of a level as a dog being forced to connect the idea of a bell ringing with food. We all make judgments whether we like it or not. A phenomenon to exemplify this would be how a child who has hung around racists for a long time (who has not developed his judgment) inevitably ends up later making racist judgments.
    Wouldn't this undermine MBTI, though, since we would not be able to isolate any function, either by observing our own thoughts or by observing our own behaviors (or the behaviors of others)? How can a theoretically pure feeler make a purely "feeling blunder" if the decisions made by that function cannot be understood by the subject without thinking? Or are you saying that it corrupts thinking?

    Edit: If we are to be able to identify any of the functions, then there must be usable parts of them that are separate from any other function.

    Edit II: Wait...or we could say that perhaps the functions are never truly autonomous, but that we can repress the other functions that temper an individual function to the point that we can identify each as a discrete entity. Function preference would therefore be an innate mechanism that drives us to repress certain functions in favor of others. And since having function preference works both to our advantage and disadvantage, there must be some *positive* uses of a given function when it is used in relative isolation from its tempering function(s). So it is possible that feeling, when distanced from thinking, can be used in way that is not necessarily detrimental.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #136
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ????
    Posts
    3,665

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The interesting phenomenon to take note of here, which is often observed in very unhealthy dominant Feelers (IFP and EFJ), is that they lapse into pure emotion. Loosing all sense of structure and coherence in their thoughts.
    It is equally as unhealthy when a ITP or ETP lapse into pure thinking mode and ignore people in their decision making. I have seen the destruction that it can do in a workplace when decisions that concern the whole organization have been done.

  7. #137
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Wouldn't this undermine MBTI, though, since we would not be able to isolate any function, either by observing our own thoughts or by observing our own behaviors (or the behaviors of others)? How can a theoretically pure feeler make a purely "feeling blunder" if the decisions made by that function cannot be understood by the subject without thinking? Or are you saying that it corrupts thinking?

    Edit: If we are to be able to identify any of the functions, then there must be usable parts of them that are separate from any other function.

    Edit II: Wait...or we could say that perhaps the functions are never truly autonomous, but that we can repress the other functions that temper an individual function to the point that we can identify each as a discrete entity. Function preference would therefore be an innate mechanism that drives us to repress certain functions in favor of others. And since having function preference works both to our advantage and disadvantage, there must be some *positive* uses of a given function when it is used in relative isolation from its tempering function(s). So it is possible that feeling, when distanced from thinking, can be used in way that is not necessarily detrimental.
    No pure feeler. A feeler blunder is a result of using too much feeling and too little thinking..Thinker blunder..vice versa..and so on..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #138
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    No pure feeler. A feeler blunder is a result of using too much feeling and too little thinking..Thinker blunder..vice versa..and so on..
    Like I said, though, what is function preference if not the impulse to suppress one set of functions in favor of another? If blunders occur because of the excess use of any one function, then the ideal person would possess a kind of function equilibrium, where all functions would be used to an equal and appropriate extent. This would make function preference something to be primarily fought against instead of embraced, and we would have no strengths as a result of having any given preference or type.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #139
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Like I said, though, what is function preference if not the impulse to suppress one set of functions in favor of another? If blunders occur because of the excess use of any one function, then the ideal person would possess a kind of function equilibrium, where all functions would be used to an equal and appropriate extent. This would make function preference something to be primarily fought against instead of embraced, and we would have no strengths as a result of having any given preference or type.
    You can supress a function. Just not completely.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #140
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You can supress a function. Just not completely.
    I understand this. The problem with it is that if one prefers, say, thinking over feeling, he/she will naturally suppress feeling and take thinking closer to its isolated state (or will at least be strongly inclined to do so). This, according to you, can have no positive effects. But if it has no positive effects, then how can a thinking type have any strengths? How can any type for that matter?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

Similar Threads

  1. My bro, such a mystery... NT or NF?
    By Cality in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 06-27-2008, 04:17 AM
  2. Physicists have 'solved' mystery of levitation
    By Sparky in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-04-2007, 03:43 AM
  3. let the mystery be unravelled....
    By mystery in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 08-01-2007, 04:02 PM
  4. Geoff's pictures : Sunset amidst prehistory and mystery
    By Geoff in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-18-2007, 06:43 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO