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  1. #21
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    They seek absolute truths, while we are happy with relative truths that may change and refine over time.
    Excellent point.

  2. #22
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    INTJs also tend to be more melancholic while INTPs are more phlegmatic.

  3. #23
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    INTJs also tend to be more melancholic while INTPs are more phlegmatic.
    For some reason I read that word as Phlegm-atic

  4. #24
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    For some reason I read that word as Phlegm-atic
    I don't even know what the word means, but every time I see it I become oddly aware of the mucus in my throat.
    intp | type 9w1 sp/sx/so

  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    We are actually able to see the POV of the other from their perspective, and if you have any value to us we'll take that perspective regularly. If we reject it, it's because we would reject it no matter who devised it (including if we did).

    INTPs are the unbending ones - their Ti inner world is not malleable, though it is usually more correct. They seek absolute truths, while we are happy with relative truths that may change and refine over time.
    This seems to be the reverse of what most people say, and it has also been the reverse of my personal experience. I wouldn't say that INTPs are more absolutist than INTJs, and I doubt many people on this forum would.

    While it is true that Ti is more likely to search for objective truth(I wouldn't say absolute), it's absolutely wrong to say that Ni is more inclined to change and refine over time. Intuition is highly subjective, and self-derived, and so putting emphasis on it often results in stubborness. It's practically a form of faith. Ti is at least able to change due to accounting for some pragmatic objectivity. BlueWing's latest bouts of madness are a great example of blind Intuition going very wrong.

    Thinking is objective, and Intuition is subjective. Objective beliefs will change based on evidence. Subjective beliefs change based on personal opinion. That being said, Ti and Ni both are potentially stubborn or flexible. The difference is that, in seeking objective reasoning, Ti driven people are more likely to be persuaded. The subjectivity of Ni driven people makes them more arbitrary and capricious.
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  6. #26
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirilis View Post
    I don't even know what the word means, but every time I see it I become oddly aware of the mucus in my throat.
    Melancholic and phlegmatic have to do with original temperament theory -- back to the Greeks, where they believed that an imbalance of bodily fluids could affect your personality, thus the names.

    'Phlegmatic' refers to phlegm (of course) and refers to a temperament that's more calm, apathetic, and unemotional. 'Melancholic' refers to black bile (which doesn't actually exist, but they didn't know that back then) a temperament that's more attune to gloominess and generally being depressive.

    Keirsey equated melancholics to SJ temperaments and phlegmatic to NT temperaments, but Berens equates melancholics to INTJs, INFJs, ISTJs, and ISTPs and phlegmatics to INTPs, INFPs, ISFPs, and ISFJs.

    The idea of INTJs being melancholic would be that they're not content unless they're trying to push their ideas against an unforgiving world (which would be a very gloomy pursuit), while INTPs are content to sit back and observe (which would yield a calmer, less attached person, and thus phlegmatic.)
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #27
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    This seems to be the reverse of what most people say, and it has also been the reverse of my personal experience. I wouldn't say that INTPs are more absolutist than INTJs, and I doubt many people on this forum would.

    While it is true that Ti is more likely to search for objective truth(I wouldn't say absolute), it's absolutely wrong to say that Ni is more inclined to change and refine over time. Intuition is highly subjective, and self-derived, and so putting emphasis on it often results in stubborness. It's practically a form of faith. Ti is at least able to change due to accounting for some pragmatic objectivity. BlueWing's latest bouts of madness are a great example of blind Intuition going very wrong.

    Thinking is objective, and Intuition is subjective. Objective beliefs will change based on evidence. Subjective beliefs change based on personal opinion. That being said, Ti and Ni both are potentially stubborn or flexible. The difference is that, in seeking objective reasoning, Ti driven people are more likely to be persuaded. The subjectivity of Ni driven people makes them more arbitrary and capricious.
    I have had the exact same experiences Wolf speaks about with Ti people, though. To put it with a contradictio in terminis: you can be fanatically logical and its therein that lies your stubbornness and subjectivity. Yes, you will change if something is logical within your principle-determined arena, but to actually re-evaluate and adapt the logical underpinnings of your existence seems to be quite difficult. In that sense you are dogmatic and stubborn. Too often Ti is all you see (and that rhymes :p), yet you believe it to be all-encompassing. I can't speak for other INTJs, but I am always painfully aware of the limitations of my own point of view and have no problem with adapting my network of points of view to accomodate yet another, including your own.

    Change to you seems to be valid change only if it is not arbitrary and capricious, but that again implies the primacy of logic.

    Ni is a perceiving function, Ti is a judging function.

    Possibly it's the interaction of Ni and Te that can make us stubborn, but Ni in itself is open to everything, it goes with the flow and makes no judgements. It just offers an array of perpetually changing insights. As such what you say about personal opinion is not valid, although it is unconsciouscly generated from within, Ni is not based on personal opinion, at best it can be the basis for an opinion.

    Also, isn't Ti just like Ni created within the subject/ self-derived and thus also subjective in a way? I don't see why self-derived should necessarily equal stubbornness in the case of Ni.

    (I wonder if you will apply "objective beliefs will change based on evidence" now )

    It's funny that I'm catering to your demand for logic when trying to explain Ni, actually, when you think of it.

    INTJs also tend to be more melancholic while INTPs are more phlegmatic.
    Heh, what a coincidence, my bro told me I'm phlegmatic only yesterday.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    I've known two INTP personalities, one of them very well, the other as a co-worker.

    Both of them have the following in common:

    1. Cynicism - Aimed at the world in general... for no apparent reason that they want to voice.
    2. Twisted sense of humor. Sometimes pretty dark...
    3. Very direct one-liners. When they open their mouths, people have a tendency to just gape at them.
    4. Single and seemingly NOT interested in dating
    5. Suspicious and disbelieving of everything they hear in general.
    6. Very good at pinpointing when someone is BSing them and almost eerily intuitive and able to read people. You get the feeling that they look right through you.
    7. Both VERY smart and know the damdest things at the drop of a hat... and if you try to talk about something but are incorrect, they have no qualms about correcting you, but only after smirking at you long enough for you to finally ask 'What's so funny?!'
    8. Did I mention they both tend to dislike most people in general? I hear 'People are Stupid' an aweful lot.
    9. When in close and friendly conversations, they are witty, charming and extremely funny... but don't piss them off! They can glare the most bone-chilling gaze at you and go dead silent before dropping something so dead-on-the-money in your lap to shut you up before you can blink.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Keirsey equated melancholics to SJ temperaments and phlegmatic to NT temperaments, but Berens equates melancholics to INTJs, INFJs, ISTJs, and ISTPs and phlegmatics to INTPs, INFPs, ISFPs, and ISFJs.
    Personally, I equate them as follows:

    Choleric: ExxJ
    Melancholic: IxxJ
    Sanguine: ExxP
    Phlegmatic: IxxP

  10. #30
    Member Jughead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    I've known two INTP personalities, one of them very well, the other as a co-worker.

    Both of them have the following in common:

    1. Cynicism - Aimed at the world in general... for no apparent reason that they want to voice.
    2. Twisted sense of humor. Sometimes pretty dark...
    3. Very direct one-liners. When they open their mouths, people have a tendency to just gape at them.
    4. Single and seemingly NOT interested in dating
    5. Suspicious and disbelieving of everything they hear in general.
    6. Very good at pinpointing when someone is BSing them and almost eerily intuitive and able to read people. You get the feeling that they look right through you.
    7. Both VERY smart and know the damdest things at the drop of a hat... and if you try to talk about something but are incorrect, they have no qualms about correcting you, but only after smirking at you long enough for you to finally ask 'What's so funny?!'
    8. Did I mention they both tend to dislike most people in general? I hear 'People are Stupid' an aweful lot.
    9. When in close and friendly conversations, they are witty, charming and extremely funny... but don't piss them off! They can glare the most bone-chilling gaze at you and go dead silent before dropping something so dead-on-the-money in your lap to shut you up before you can blink.
    All of that fits me very well. *defensive* People are stupid. We disbelieve everything until it's filtered through Ti, so I guess we come off cynical and suspicious.

    Anyway, INTJs need closure, they need to be productive, they need to finish one thing off before moving on. They aren't satisfied with thinking of ideas, they feel accomplished only when they apply the idea. INTPs are really laid back, and are content with thinking of ideas, being excited at how cool they are, and then moving on to other ideas - they feel no need to translate their idea from their head to the real world, and finish off projects.

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