[MBTI General] Trouble Understanding this NT Lady

[idkman24]

I guess I had this in the wrong subforum.

So, there is this ENTP 3w4 lady.

From December 2012-February 2013, we talked all the time via FB message and text messaging.

Beginning of February 2013, I went to her dorm room (I graduated), we almost have sex, but I feel like a one night stand, and I think she likes someone else. She was naked on top of me, I refused sex, we still cuddle, I spend the night.

Three days later, I go abroad for a 4 months. She messages me the instant I get on FB abroad. Things happen, after about a month abroad, she messages me telling me she doesn't want a relationship with me, not to read into it, it was a blunt declaration, we weren't compatible. I disagree. There is a STRONG connection when she and I are together. I'd leave a room, come back, and pretty much say what she said when I left the room. It is eerie.

We don't talk for 5 months.

I come back home, go and visit friends at my college towards the end of August. See, her, she's drunk, I approach her, she acts like a bitch to me. Next day, she sends me an apology message. We start talking again.

I want to hang out, she says no, but after talking for a bit, she wants to hang out. I was going to take her to a haunted house, but a day before, she gets a concussion. She insist I go visit her.

We talk, have a pretty decent time, but no real sexual flare. She brought up some sexual jokes, but I didnt' really read into it. We reschedule the haunted house.

Last Tuesday, we planned for me to go to her room, go for a drive, and I teach her some yoga (she has a bad back). I get there, we go for the drive, she refuses the yoga because her best friend "heard male voices." She's obnoxiously private about her life. During the drive, she calls me "friend," "bro," and doesn't take well to my physical advances (she didn't appreciate nor back down when I did the previous time we hung out). We talk about the night in February, she basically tells me I read too much into it, and she apologizes for "using me." She also claims to have attachment issues and can't do relationships (she continuously tells me that even her best friends at school piss her off and she doesn't plan on keeping contact with anyone after her graduation. This was in response to me telling her she's the only one I like talking to).

I continuously try to push this "you and I are very similar" card (it is true, she doesn't see it).

She has been rejected from this INFJ guy she has been friends with for years, and I think she's rather frustrated about it, but is trying to get over it.

We were supposed to go to the haunted house (again, just me and her) yesterday, but I messaged her telling her I wasn't taking her because I couldn't possibly ever see her as "just friends," and if she ever wanted to hang out in a context of a date (and told her informal dates, but dates nonetheless, are preferable) to contact me. We decide to have a strictly intellectual relationship. She responded to this proposal with "aww, that is the most genuine, nicest thing anyone has ever told me. I completely understand, don't worry, I'll leave you alone."

Last night, she messages me at about 1:30AM telling me how she doesn't think it's possible for an ENTP to be happy at her school (I'm assuming she was drunk). At 1PM I messaged her back asking "and why is that?" She looked at my question, didn't respond.

She tells me she doesn't trust anybody, but always tells me her feelings, and then corrects herself saying "hmmm.....I wonder why I always go to you with my feelings? Sorry, I'm being so self-centered."

My best friend (who doesn't know her) thinks she either subconsciously or unconsciously likes me. I don't know what to do. I am not readily accessible to her (which could be a good thing), but I strongly think that there is something here. She knows that I like her, so I acted correctly there.

She is knowledgeable about MBTI. She tossed around different types for me in the past (called me ENTJ, ESTJ, ISTJ, and ESFJ), but in the car ride, I sort of opened up to her a little bit, and she admitted that I was an INJ (I know myself to be an INxJ, most probably an INFJ). My Enneagram is 3w2.

Today we went back and forth talking in very large passages. Mostly about her night. She told me she got very drunk, cried, blacked out, and that's when she messaged me. She then told me she didn't want to talk about it anymore after a while because she felt like she was coming off as "self-centered" and "whiny" and it made her uncomfortable. I basically told her I love listening to her talk, and I like the mental images her Ne brings to me (she told me she's completely unaware that she jumps from topic to topic so quickly in conversation. I told her I liked that). She didn't respond to that.

At this point, I'm just going to see when she starts the next conversation.

What is my move with this girl?

 

[Salomé]

I don't see this working out well for you. She's not into you. Sorry.

 

[digesthisickness]

I'd need to know how long it's been since she was into the other guy and it ended. If she's still thinking of someone else, it could mean you have to give her a bit of time. Sounds like she's keeping a barrier up for some reason. Could be lack of romantic interest in you or a lingering interest in another.

 

[Salomé]

Either way, she isn't treating him very well... I think he should expect more from a potential partner.

 

[digesthisickness]

I'll just go on the assumption that he knows what he wants and try to help him understand her point of view.

 

[idkman24]

I'll just go on the assumption that he knows what he wants and try to help him understand her point of view.

This "other guy" is an INFJ, and I think (perhaps because she is an NT type) she chased him BECAUSE she knows her type is compatible with the INFJ, and he is in the same major as her. Also, they studied abroad together a couple of years ago. A friend of mine (who is also, ironically, an INFJ) told me that he's in an on and off relationship with another woman.

The girl told me she got "rejected" about 2 months ago, and she got EXTREMELY emotional (crying, hating life, etc.) This guy REALLY got her bad. Now she tells me that she's doing mindful exercises and has recognized she needs to move on from this guy. I think, in the past, she may have found an ESTJ to "get under" to help her forget (I think she may have done this with me for another guy in the past), but she's matured past that.

She also identifies with the Fearful-Avoidant Attachment. She wants emotional closeness in a romantic relationship, but she's also uncomfortable in a relationship. That's why she told me "relationships aren't for her." Her studying of attachment types was due to this guy. I don't know where the correlation is, but it's, apparently there.

I don't really care that she has this issue. I am willing to help her around it. I REALLY REALLY REALLY like her. Maybe I'm in love. I don't know. I fear that she may have intellectualized love so much that she really DOES like me, but she has all the symptoms and won't diagnose it as "well damn....I do like this guy."

She has brought this INFJ guy up to me several times. NEVER in a context of "I like him" but always in the context of "I liked him." They still hang out. I told her "look, I'm not into giving advice to a girl I like about other guys, but you are frustrated and confused, and that bothers me. He doesn't know what he's missing out on. You're a wonderful girl. Forget him. He's obviously blind and stupid. Save yourself from emotional anguish."

She didn't respond directly to this, but we spoke a couple of days later. I know, as an ENTP with attachment issues, I can't be too "mushy-gushy," but I HAVE told her "I know you are an ENTP, so I'm just going to go against all my own rules and be 100% straightforward with you." She really appreciated this.

 

[digesthisickness]

Oh, yeah. Keeping in mind this is just how it appears to me (but I can relate to what she's doing), sounds like:

She's still into him and she's only sharing with you a fraction of what's really going on emotionally. Confused, hurt, rejected, analyzing, the works. This stuff has to play itself out. Sorry, but it could be a while. Then logic will win the day and she won't ever talk about him again because he won't even come to mind. Unless as an object in some conversation.

 

[idkman24]

Oh, yeah. Keeping in mind this is just how it appears to me (but I can relate to what she's doing), sounds like:

She's still into him and she's only sharing with you a fraction of what's really going on emotionally. Confused, hurt, rejected, analyzing, the works. This stuff has to play itself out. Sorry, but it could be a while. Then logic will win the day and she won't ever talk about him again because he won't even come to mind. Unless as an object in some conversation.

So, in other words, I should go look at other women....

 

[digesthisickness]

So, in other words, I should go look at other women....

It seems like the wisest thing to do right now. Nothing saying you can't keep in touch in a distant way though, so that you'll know if she's open to dating again (seriously) and can dive in before some other guy does if you still want her.

 

[idkman24]

It seems like the wisest thing to do right now. Nothing saying you can't keep in touch in a distant way though, so that you'll know if she's open to dating again (seriously) and can dive in before some other guy does if you still want her.

Yeah, you're right.

I mean, she knows my intentions. I told her I liked her, so it's not a matter of uncertainty.

If she does end up with another guy, I think that's the signal for me to drop her completely.

I've dated quite a few girls before. I don't think she's seriously dated anyone (except when she was 19, she dated a German INTJ guy in her study abroad -- she still puts a lot of weight into this saying he's "the only guy that understood her." She was 19. I think she was just a young girl looking for love on a study abroad).

Anyway, I didn't actually date this girl, but I never felt more compatible to a girl in terms of similar values, world views, morals, and ambitions. We even like similar things. To me, it just makes sense, but she doesn't see it. Once I described to her what I want out of a relationship, and she replied "you just described my perfect relationship."

The idealist in me would love for her to come around, but, perhaps it's because she's only 21, I don't think that's going to happen. She constantly has many guys crushing on her (typical of an ENTP). I think she'll always have a sense of "I can do better," but I honestly think there isn't a guy better for her than I am.

Ah well. There's this ESFP girl who has been trying to hang out with me for quite some time now. Maybe I should give her a call...

 

[digesthisickness]

Yeah, you're right.

I mean, she knows my intentions. I told her I liked her, so it's not a matter of uncertainty.

If she does end up with another guy, I think that's the signal for me to drop her completely.

I've dated quite a few girls before. I don't think she's seriously dated anyone (except when she was 19, she dated a German guy in her study abroad -- she still puts a lot of weight into this saying he's "the only guy that understood her." She was 19. I think she was just a young girl looking for love on a study abroad).

Anyway, I didn't actually date this girl, but I never felt more compatible to a girl in terms of similar values, world views, morals, and ambitions. We even like similar things. To me, it just makes sense, but she doesn't see it.

The idealist in me would love for her to come around, but, perhaps it's because she's only 21, I don't think that's going to happen. She constantly has many guys crushing on her (typical of an ENTP). I think she'll always have a sense of "I can do better," but I honestly think there isn't a guy better for her than I am.

Ah well. There's this ESFP girl who has been trying to hang out with me for quite some time now. Maybe I should give her a call...

If you disappear and she seeks you out, that's a great sign. IF she's not just talking about some other guy, of course. And, sure she'll have the sense that she can do better, but that doesn't necessarily mean she'd think she could have a better guy. Ha! ENTPs as you're finding out right now can get extremely attached and can apply that 'do better' attitude to the relationship. Optimizing it instead of seeking another.

If that other guy rejected her before she had a chance to tweak it then hey, she could be feeling for him what you're feeling for her. That it could work if only...

We analyze the crap out of it and then logic our way out of things, even relationships when they're bad for us. If she wants to be around you, you'll know. She'll eventually cave and contact you if it's that important to her. Either way, good luck with the other chick if that's what you want.

 

[idkman24]

If you disappear and she seeks you out, that's a great sign. IF she's not just talking about some other guy, of course. And, sure she'll have the sense that she can do better, but that doesn't necessarily mean she'd think she could have a better guy. Ha! ENTPs as you're finding out right now can get extremely attached and can apply that 'do better' attitude to the relationship. Optimizing it instead of seeking another.

If that other guy rejected her before she had a chance to tweak it then hey, she could be feeling for him what you're feeling for her. That it could work if only...

We analyze the crap out of it and then logic our way out of things, even relationships when they're bad for us. If she wants to be around you, you'll know. She'll eventually cave and contact you if it's that important to her. Either way, good luck with the other chick if that's what you want.

It's not what I want. Getting my mind off of this ENTP is what I want. My damned INFJ idealist self SMH.

I laid it out easy for her. Told her if she wants a date, give me a call.

Perhaps I should go no-contact and see where things fall.

Thank you for your help, [MENTION=74]digesthisickness[/MENTION]

 

[digesthisickness]

It's not what I want. Getting my mind off of this ENTP is what I want. My damned INFJ idealist self SMH.

I laid it out easy for her. Told her if she wants a date, give me a call.

Perhaps I should go no-contact and see where things fall.

Thank you for your help, [MENTION=74]digesthisickness[/MENTION]

No contact is actually a good idea for both of you, I think. She can't miss you (and thus recognize that she cares) unless you're gone, and you can be distracted a little in the interim. If it makes it easier on you, you can always put a time limit on it. Like, say, a month or two. You're welcome.

 

[idkman24]

No contact is actually a good idea for both of you, I think. She can't miss you (and thus recognize that she cares) unless you're gone, and you can be distracted a little in the interim. If it makes it easier on you, you can always put a time limit on it. Like, say, a month or two. You're welcome.

I don't know. She may just be like that to all of her guy friends. She has told me things about herself that I don't think she readily shares with other people, and of course, I pick up things about her (like insecurities, imperfections, little white lies she tells) because I read her like a book. Sometimes I blow her mind when I reveal something about her that she didn't explicitly communicate with me.

She has really made it a point to look at me as a friend. I still think there is something in her that she likes me. Her best friend isn't my biggest fan (ESTJ), but some of her other friends really like me (ENFPs, INFPs, etc.) The difference I have on her other friends is we got drunk together, we made out, and she had her naked body pressed against mine.

But, like my best friends say, that was months ago. Things have changed. The first time we hung out, it seemed like she wanted to talk about it, and she did bring up that I read "too much into it," but I dismissed it all as "in the past." Then, the second time we hung out, I think we both got 'closure' about that night, in a sense. She told me that I was just a one-night stand (which is half accurate, but I'm certain she liked me, if even a little bit), and I told her why I tactlessly said 'no' to her right before she was about to pull down my boxer briefs (I could pick up that she still had feelings for her "best guy friend," and I felt like a one night stand). She had a look of disappointment in herself when I said this, so I grabbed her, laughed, and said "it's not a problem, it was so long ago."

Some of my friends tell me to get over it, that I'm thinking too much into a fling. I've had flings before, and I've never had this happen to me (except when I lost my virginity -- but that's a different story). Other friends tell me that since I saw her naked already, she HAS to be attracted to me, even if it's only in her subconscious. It doesn't matter that it was 9 months ago.

Our main arena of contact is through Facebook messaging. She HATES using the phone. Sometimes, I'll go online, see that she's on, and we won't talk. Sometimes, she'll start a conversation with me. Sometimes I with her. I made it so she can't see that I'm online anymore. Going to go through with it 2-4 weeks. As soon as I get contact from her, I'll come to this forum. I don't think ignoring her is the way to go (ENTPs hate being ignored -- IME, ignore an ENTP, they'll just move to something else that's shiny), but I need to find a way, without having contact or being in her vicinity (she goes to school 40 minutes from my house) to pull myself from her subconscious and into her conscious mind.

I think the last things I said (we are incredibly similar, admitting I liked her, telling her that I love listening to her, telling her that I find her adorable, telling her that I love how she bounces around with her Ne and she doesn't even realize it, and it gives me a lot to think about, research, and draws vivid images in my head, and telling her that her current INFJ crush is an idiot for not realizing what he's missing out on) was the PERFECT way to end my contact with her. Since it's in her messages inbox, she can read and re-read it. I think, now that she's doing a lot of self-reflection and trying to understand herself, she may think about everything I've told her and our interactions together, and how we could fit with each other in the long run.

Perfect way to end things.

This "fearful-avoidant" thing she claims to have may also spell 'doom' for me.

Also, from what I understand this INFJ guy and her are, at the very least, "still friends" and hang out. She told me her "INFJ pal" spoke to her when she was down. I think she may have an INFJ girl friend, but I'm not sure. I still find it rather curious that, in her "blackout" state where she was feeling very, very sad, I wasn't even online and she messaged me to tell me that. Again, her subconscious is telling her something, but I don't think I can spell it out any further for her. Her intuition has to do the rest.

OR

She'll just toss everything, pull an ENTP, find another guy that finds her interesting (which isn't that hard), get her sexual stimulation from an ESxJ "bro," and forget about me.

I'll keep you guys posted.

She's active on the MBTI forums, so I hope she doesn't come across this. I don't think she uses this site though. Maybe just to gather information (hence the pretty vague thread title).

 

[digesthisickness]

We're avoidant when it's something we want to avoid. We forget when something is forgettable, not because we're distracted. The two go hand in hand. We can't escape our feelings so easily. Not once we feel. I fear you may make the mistake of thinking you're getting the full picture when we just aren't as easy to read as people like to think we are. We're good actors and can fool you into thinking all is okay if we like quite easily. Very practiced at hiding the vulnerable parts. Telling us you can see right into us and know us so well and how easy that is isn't such a great move. We know better you see, and because of that, you appear quite foolish, presumptuous, and full of yourself. More into you than us.

 

[idkman24]

We're avoidant when it's something we want to avoid. We forget when something is forgettable, not because we're distracted. The two go hand in hand. We can't escape our feelings so easily. Not once we feel. I fear you may make the mistake of thinking you're getting the full picture when we just aren't as easy to read as people like to think we are. We're good actors and can fool you into thinking all is okay if we like quite easily. Very practiced at hiding the vulnerable parts. Telling us you can see right into us and know us so well and how easy that is isn't such a great move. We know better you see, and because of that, you appear quite foolish, presumptuous, and full of yourself. More into you than us.

I know that this is the downfall of the INFJ. So I always was careful how I worded it. I would start sentences with "now, I could be wrong but..." or "it seems to me that you're..." If she ever told me I was wrong or misread something, I just accepted it.

I know how annoying it is to presume. I've lost friends who tried to prescribe me with "you are this way" or "you are that way" and when I tell them that they're wrong about me, they tell me that I am wrong about ME. So, I know that's frustrating. I have one friend who particular (who, ironically, introduced me to this ENTP) who is ALSO into MBTI. He tries to prescribe Si-dom and Si-aux types because I insist to him I'm an Ni-dom. He'll say "noooo.......you live your life in the past...." and I'll tell him "dude, I have video reel upon video reel about things that happened to me in the past, true, but at my very core I'm a future planner." He'll tell me I'm full of ish.

So, yes, I know presuming a lot about someone is annoying. I can't stand it personally. I was careful not to. But sometimes, she'd admit I was right, and I never claimed (to her anyways) that I know more about her than she thinks (even though I do believe this is the case).

She comes across very ESTP "Little Miss Perfect," charming, seductive, and brilliant in public. I've told her though I love her public persona, I think it's all a cover up. That conversation is actually what wanted her to hang out with me. She admitted I was correct in this assumption.

 

[Salomé]

She told me that I was just a one-night stand (which is half accurate, but I'm certain she liked me, if even a little bit), and I told her why I tactlessly said 'no' to her right before she was about to pull down my boxer briefs (I could pick up that she still had feelings for her "best guy friend," and I felt like a one night stand). She had a look of disappointment in herself when I said this, so I grabbed her, laughed, and said "it's not a problem, it was so long ago."

Some of my friends tell me to get over it, that I'm thinking too much into a fling. I've had flings before, and I've never had this happen to me (except when I lost my virginity -- but that's a different story). Other friends tell me that since I saw her naked already, she HAS to be attracted to me, even if it's only in her subconscious. It doesn't matter that it was 9 months ago.

Why would you listen to your friends and not to what she is telling you? Especially when you know from your own experience that flings don't mean anything. Do you imagine it's different for a woman? It's not. Your friends aren't helping you by telling you what you want to hear. You're not helping yourself. Your infatuation is clouding your judgement. Digest is right, you're doing that annoying NF thing of insisting you know someone better than they know themselves - that will only alienate and irritate her. And you are only harming yourself by pining for someone who doesn't reciprocate your feelings. She doesn't want a relationship with you. A drunken fumble doesn't change that. She told you she was using you. She was. If she hadn't been, she'd have been much more upset by your rejection, instead of apologising to you. The fact that you are prepared to continue to let her use you will only make her lose respect for you.
I think this is as open and shut as it gets. I'm not saying it's impossible that she could develop feelings for you at some point, when she gets past this other guy, but you need to accept on face value what she is telling you right now and stop wasting your time imagining otherwise: she's not into you.

 

[idkman24]

Why would you listen to your friends and not to what she is telling you? Especially when you know from your own experience that flings don't mean anything. Do you imagine it's different for a woman? It's not. Your friends aren't helping you by telling you what you want to hear. You're not helping yourself. Your infatuation is clouding your judgement. Digest is right, you're doing that annoying NF thing of insisting you know someone better than they know themselves - that will only alienate and irritate her. And you are only harming yourself by pining for someone who doesn't reciprocate your feelings. She doesn't want a relationship with you. A drunken fumble doesn't change that. She told you she was using you. She was. If she hadn't been, she'd have been much more upset by your rejection, instead of apologising to you. The fact that you are prepared to continue to let her use you will only make her lose respect for you.
I think this is as open and shut as it gets. I'm not saying it's impossible that she could develop feelings for you at some point, when she gets past this other guy, but you need to accept on face value what she is telling you right now and stop wasting your time imagining otherwise: she's not into you.

She's a walking defense mechanism. A lot of the things she says I don't initially believe. For instance, she has called me "creepy" before, and after ten more minutes of talking with her, we planned a hangout. She even admitted that she knowingly triggers her defenses around guys that she even LIKES. She hates this about herself. I think that's where the attachment issues she told me about come in.

I know she liked me, even though she says otherwise. I just remember having that feeling. I usually can see thru people's BS, and she definitely did like me. Even if just a smidgeon.

Otherwise, you may be right. She could have absolutely 0 interest in me today. But, as a social experiment and just to see what'll happen, I cut off ALL communication with her. She can still contact me, and if she does, I'll probably come back to this thread for coaching and also I'll take my jolly old time responding.

Either way, she either contacts me, wonders where I've gone off to, and we'll go from there, OR I just lose complete contact with her, and in a month or two am over her.

Win-win.

 

[Qre:us]

She is confused about what she wants. Afraid to be "weak", to be vulnerable. Intimacy (and peculiarly, NOT sexual intimacy) is awkward for her. I'm sure she feels like a bull in a china shop when trying to respond to another's intimacy. And she's emotionally immature. And, you have become the outlet.

It may translate to "games", that she doesn't even know she is playing with you, because her reaction to things are out of fear (illusionary bravado) rather than self-confidence/self-awareness.

If you keep engaging with her, as you have, you both will keep going in circles.

She needs to grow up, own who she is, what she wants - and if you're there during this phase, when you're a contributing factor to her confusion - you will enable her.

You should not have to put up with this. And I don't think she's ready for you at this point in her life, to receive you as what you are (offering).

 

[digesthisickness]

I know that this is the downfall of the INFJ. So I always was careful how I worded it. I would start sentences with "now, I could be wrong but..." or "it seems to me that you're..." If she ever told me I was wrong or misread something, I just accepted it.

Is there some reason why you don't ask a question like a question? Instead of attaching yourself to it? Example: Why does...? or Are you...?

Just wondering.

I know how annoying it is to presume. I've lost friends who tried to prescribe me with "you are this way" or "you are that way" and when I tell them that they're wrong about me, they tell me that I am wrong about ME. So, I know that's frustrating. I have one friend who particular (who, ironically, introduced me to this ENTP) who is ALSO into MBTI. He tries to prescribe Si-dom and Si-aux types because I insist to him I'm an Ni-dom. He'll say "noooo.......you live your life in the past...." and I'll tell him "dude, I have video reel upon video reel about things that happened to me in the past, true, but at my very core I'm a future planner." He'll tell me I'm full of ish.

You do tend to speak in concrete ways like an S, but that's just based on here, so I don't know. Hey, do you think you may be a bit attached to being an INFJ instead of ISFJ because you think that's what she wants? Hope not as that would never work and would only slow your progress, if it exists, down.

So, yes, I know presuming a lot about someone is annoying. I can't stand it personally. I was careful not to. But sometimes, she'd admit I was right, and I never claimed (to her anyways) that I know more about her than she thinks (even though I do believe this is the case).

You think you know more about her than she thinks you know about her, you mean? Possibly, if you know her social security number and she didn't give it, but otherwise, it doesn't seem like holding back what you think you know when talking to her is something you do, so she probably knows exactly how much you know. And, more importantly, how much you don't. How much no one does.

If you're correct and it doesn't bother her, then that's cool, but I'd probably have to hear that from her. And, by probably, I mean I would have to hear that from her.

She comes across very ESTP "Little Miss Perfect," charming, seductive, and brilliant in public. I've told her though I love her public persona, I think it's all a cover up. That conversation is actually what wanted her to hang out with me. She admitted I was correct in this assumption.

HAHAHA!

That's why horoscopes are popular. Everyone puts on some sort of public persona. We all have secrets.