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  1. #11
    Senior Member PimpinMcBoltage's Avatar
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    The best thing to do is to hire some prostitutes for him. Bring him home to the land of facts, sexually. Then he will stop being a dumbass.
    Phelgmatic-Jewish-Communist-Islamic-Transethnic-Asexual-National Socialist

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    In my own personal case, I would think of a theory and then I let it go, have my say and leave it unless someone else comes back and talk about it. I do get stuck sometimes, it is still there. I just try to keep it to myself, most of the times.

    What @highlander said made sense to me, since I do that often at work. Sometimes my MBTI results do return with INTP, also when I spent a lot of time with an ESFJ, they remind to look at the facts first.
    Well I mean a more typical form of this I witness are INTJ saying that NT intelligence or IQ scores are the only *real*intelligence, or just saying bizarre and degrading things objectifyining women to numbers as if they just can't accept that to a pretty broad extent sexual attraction is subjective, depending on individual and mass culture as well, insisting every man wants this one type of celebrity body, it freaks me out, because it's untrue, but then they imagine that people are just morally offended, at which point I am just like look you schmuck, look at the facts world wide about what is considered most attractive and how other types of intelligence are necessary. It's really profoundly delusional on their part, and yet they sit there imagining that they are so objective and honest, because they have a test score and a tv screen to point to.

    That is more typical than the tin foil hat stuff, but it is this entire attitude that every thing that they think and feel must be Te.

    You sound well adjusted, I don't know, I don't know you, but my grandfather invalidated me as well, saying being good at writing and having interest in the arts was wrong, since math and the military were clearly my path to success...he was ISTJ.

  3. #13
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Thanks for your replies! I'm reading them over now.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  4. #14
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You have to actually name things that are wrong with what his is saying...if he still won't listen then, I don't know...what kinds of theories does he have, is it constant, and are you sure he has never been right?
    It’s not that he’s never been right about any ideas; it’s just that he’s saying now that he’s never been wrong, which is not true at all. To give you some idea of what kinds of things he says, right after the U.S. government shut down, he told me to wait two weeks and Obama would declare himself a dictator. This was right before he said he has been predicting things for twenty years and they’re never wrong. I’ve been debating with myself since then whether or not to bring up that in fact Obama is not a dictator to show him evidence that he can be wrong, but I ultimately don’t think that will do anyone any good. Also, years ago, he drew up a map of what the world would look like by the year 2000, and it included Atlantis being raised up. For decades now, he has been keeping tons of canned and jarred food in the basement in case of some kind of apocalypse, and his most frequent gifts to his family members are survival gear.

    This has been going on for DECADES. Of course he has the right to believe what he wants to believe, but the problem is that he brings up stuff all the time, mostly controversial political stuff. And he says it to people, even people he doesn’t know very well, as if his opinion is an established fact and it will be obvious to them that what he’s saying is right. And then there’s this:

    It's frustrating for me because these guys often talk to other people like they are stupid assholes, but get butthurt when you give it right back.
    He is exactly like this. But he has no idea about the effect that he has on people. He won’t let people peacefully disagree with him, but keeps bringing up this stuff every conversation and getting aggressive, and then gets really confused about why everyone stays away from him. I don’t think it’s intentional at all, but it’s definitely destructive.

    I’ve lurking on PerC for the past couple months, and I think RobynC is a mild version of him.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The way out of an Ni-Fi loop is through Te. It is kind of hard to say, "I want to get out of this loop and I'm going to exercise my Te now". What will likely work is getting out there and spending more time interacting with people and working. The world of work is often very Te oriented and so if your job encourages you to exercise that and you spend more time doing that and less time alone and in your head, the Te naturally comes out and gets exercised.
    This is very interesting. My family member actually has been out of work for a couple of years due to severe health problems, and he’s now on permanent disability. And now that you mention this, I realize that his paranoia and obsessions with his conspiracy theories have gotten more pronounced since this happened. The only interactions he has with people are family members and talking to people on the Internet who agree with him. It makes sense that he would not have much back-and-forth with people who challenge his ideas, and so it feeds on itself even more. Hmm . . . I’ll have to brainstorm and see if I can think of some way to encourage him to get himself out of the house and interacting with people, like through volunteering or some kind of social group that he would be interested in.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  5. #15
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    People on the internet agree with him? That's odd. I would think he would be confronted even more stringently on line, though yeah he could locate a group of like minded conspiracy theorists.

    What you are describing sounds fairly extreme...Obama will become a dictator? Mm. Good luck if Robyn is mild in comparison. Even when she is right sometimes or on to something, she has three more threads of incomprehensible paranoia.

  6. #16
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    From what I gather, it is him using that excuse, not her.
    Yes, that’s what he says to me.

    First of all, thank you so much for your insightful posts! I have a feeling I’ll be mulling them over for awhile.

    Ask yourself what your goal is. I know J's like their goals.

    Is it to prove him wrong? Or is it to draw him out of his isolation and give him a chance to get out of this loop?

    Be honest with yourself.
    It’s probably a little bit of both. I do love him and want to see him stop being so lonely and self-destructive. But it also just so happens that in a lot of cases, his political opinions are the complete opposite of mine (he talks about politics ALL THE TIME), and it really rubs me the wrong way a lot of the time to hear him say all these things that make me want to facepalm.

    I appreciate what you’re saying that if I decide to take on the task of trying to give him a space to air out his ideas in front of an audience that doesn’t already agree with him and gently try to nudge him toward other ideas, that I need to have the attitude that I’m on his side and not judging him. I’ve been thinking about this, and I’m not sure that I am able to do this. I have so much history with him already, and there is some resentment toward him from the past. Also, he has a habit that as soon as anyone says anything disagreeing with him, even something as innocuous as “I have a different viewpoint than that,” he will feel judged and start reacting like he was personally attacked. It is hard when he gets like this not to start pushing back. I don’t know, maybe if I do do this, I’ll have to not mention directly that I disagree with him but only say like what you were suggesting: “how about?” or “have you considered?” ????

    I’ll have to really consider carefully if I would be able to do this, and only try to do this myself if I feel like I could do it in a way that’s nonjudgmental and that will make his Fi feel safe. I don’t know how I would suggest to him to go see a therapist without him feeling judged either. He went to one once before, and he stopped when after one session, the therapist suggested he might have bipolar disorder.

    I wanted to ask--you say that after I create the safe space that I should:

    Encourage him with questions to create Te-benchmarks for his own Ni-hunches, and honestly help him pursue them, even when you know them to be false already
    I’m not very good with Te. Can you give me more specific examples of what you mean of how to do this in a Te-style way? And what you mean by Te-benchmarks? He often emails me (and others) articles where someone is explaining certain incidents that are happening in the government and what the author’s spin is on what it means. How could I help him using these articles, for instance? (and anyone who has thoughts on this is welcome to respond too)

    You're also a fellow Ni-user, and a Ti-user (which works similarly to Fi). You yourself probably understand better than anyone the kind of time and introverting it takes for Ni to re-adjust its perspective, to build a new framework with the information gathered by Xe, as well as the Truth-seeking that Xi(in your case Ti) does and how painfully slow, nitpicky and circular that can be. Give him that time. Be patient. Don't expect this to be fixed easily, and don't hold your breath for tangible results. It is a process. A slow, painful and necessary one.
    Yes *sigh*. I do understand well how stubborn Ni-doms can be! I have had ideas in the past that I was ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT A DOUBT COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RIGHT ABOUT . . . and then it turned out I was totally wrong. I feel for the people who used to try to help me see that I was wrong.

    Sometimes I feel like he has to be the one to break himself out of this since often with Ni-users, you feel like people don’t understand where you’re coming from or what your thought processes are that led you to this conclusion, so you can dismiss opposing information. It feels like such a monumental task since many have tried to get through to him before, including me. But this has had such a negative effect that it’s worth trying if I feel like I could.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  7. #17
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    People on the internet agree with him? That's odd. I would think he would be confronted even more stringently on line, though yeah he could locate a group of like minded conspiracy theorists.
    Bingo. He doesn't go on sites that have an open kind of debate like here; it's sites for groups of people like him where they all reinforce each other's opinions. I think for the most part, it's good that people can go on the Internet and find others like them when they feel like an oddball in real life, but the downside of that is that people with extreme opinions can easily find and confine themselves to the few people who do agree with them and say "See, others agree with me! I'm right!" and the sickness is reinforced.

    What you are describing sounds fairly extreme...Obama will become a dictator? Mm. Good luck if Robyn is mild in comparison. Even when she is right sometimes or on to something, she has three more threads of incomprehensible paranoia.
    Thanks. I need all the luck I can get.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  8. #18
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    It's so strange to see an INFJ caring about an INTJ. The fact that you are persistent in interacting with him, is such a foreign concept to me.

  9. #19
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Absolute lost cause. INTJs are beyond external help, especially in Ni-Fi loops. Maybe in a while the centripetal force of his own paranoid delusions will get so intense that he'll break out of his own orbit, but who knows how long that will take, if it even happens at all.

    You should also take into account that he doesn't want your help at all, and feels perfectly content wallowing in his own nonsense.

  10. #20
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    It's so strange to see an INFJ caring about an INTJ. The fact that you are persistent in interacting with him, is such a foreign concept to me.
    Why? Do you feel like the two types are too different?

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Absolute lost cause. INTJs are beyond external help, especially in Ni-Fi loops. Maybe in a while the centripetal force of his own paranoid delusions will get so intense that he'll break out of his own orbit, but who knows how long that will take, if it even happens at all.
    I'm considering that this might be the case. Stubborn Ni is stubborn. It's just hard to sit back and watch. Especially when he's not only hurting himself but everyone else who interacts with him.

    You should also take into account that he doesn't want your help at all, and feels perfectly content wallowing in his own nonsense.
    I think he doesn't want to change himself and doesn't think he is the problem at all. In that sense, he doesn't want help. But I know he also doesn't like that no one wants to be around him, and he wants that situation to be changed. Maybe I could talk to him from that angle--that his Te goal to have better relationships with others is not being fulfilled? I don't know.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

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