[INTJ] INTJ friend going through a personal crisis

[Ene]

My INTJ friend tells me he is leaving his wife. He tells me that she likes to sleep with other guys and shows no signs of changing and that he just can't deal with that anymore. He says that every time he thinks she is seriously going to change, she does it again. I know it is a tough decision he is making. I know that he didn't want to leave her because he kept giving her chance after chance. So, I think this constitutes a bit of a personal crisis in his life. So, INTJs what would you expect from your friends during such a time? What can I do to be supportive? I know the age old answer is just listen, but beyond that...any suggestions from INTJs on this forum?

 

[chubber]

set him up on dates. I would have liked it, since I am INTJ and left my wife. Get someone to help clean his place. Make sure he eats, take him to places where he enjoys eating. Listen to his dreams of what he wants to achieve.

 

[Amargith]

Tell him he is doing the right thing. That, as much as he clearly loves/loved her, he needs to think of himself right now. And that she is undeserving of him atm. Then give him time to grieve. He probably won't show much of it, as they tend to internalize this stuff. Taking him out to do stuff, and engaging that baby SFP inside them is not a bad idea, nor is being there to just listen, without any attempt to fix the situation or invalidate what he shares, even if it is...filled with anger, resentment and unreasonable judgement.

The biggest issue he faces for the future, imho, is the lack of trust. He needs to see that there are women out there who are in fact worthy of his affections, who can love him for who he is and who won't be that callous with his heart. So be an example of that, even if you re just his platonic friend. And help him in the future in identifying an acceptable risk wrt mates. It is my experience that INTJs who have been burned -truly burned and have gone all out, as he has, in giving their heart to someone who stomped on it - tend to doubt their ability to ever pick the right mate, and they often end up cynical, demanding certainty which no mate can live up to and often decide in the end that it is no longer worth it, which means they lock their heart away an become the very person that hurt them in the first place, to protect themselves.

If you can at all show him that it is absolutely worth it to not lock his heart away, you'll be doing him a great service.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION] & [MENTION]Armargith[/MENTION] Thank you both so very much. You have given me some great insight and advice and I plan on referring back to it as he goes through this thing. He's been asking me about how to "cook" things lately and I gave him a microwave; this weekend he talked to me about a job he was considering. I told him that I didn't think he woudl be happy in that job and he said he didn't think he would be either so he told them to find another guy.


Maybe I will give him some things for his barren apartment. He is giving me a wooden dummy. I could call it a swap.

set him up on dates. I would have liked it, since I am INTJ and left my wife.

I'm glad you told me this. Thank you.

Get someone to help clean his place. Make sure he eats, take him to places where he enjoys eating. Listen to his dreams of what he wants to achieve.

These are all such practical and wonderful suggestions. He likes to try new foods so I can use that as a spring board to making sure he's eating.

Tell him he is doing the right thing.

Thank you. It's funny but that's the "feeling" I got from him on the phone the other day. It was like he just wanted someone to say, "You're doing the right thing." So, I will make sure that he knows I think that he's making the right call and doing the right thing.

That, as much as he clearly loves/loved her, he needs to think of himself right now. And that she is undeserving of him atm. Then give him time to grieve. He probably won't show much of it, as they tend to internalize this stuff. Taking him out to do stuff, and engaging that baby SFP inside them is not a bad idea, nor is being there to just listen, without any attempt to fix the situation or invalidate what he shares, even if it is...filled with anger, resentment and unreasonable judgement.

Thank you. I will do all of those things!

The biggest issue he faces for the future, imho, is the lack of trust.

I had wondered about this.

He needs to see that there are women out there who are in fact worthy of his affections, who can love him for who he is and who won't be that callous with his heart. So be an example of that, even if you re just his platonic friend

.

I will be. And I think it is good for him that I am a platonic friend.

Wow, thank you. I will just be real with him.

you can at all show him that it is absolutely worth it to not lock his heart away, you'll be doing him a great service.

I will try very hard to do this. He is my mentor and has been nothing but kind to me and I want to be nothing less for him.

 

[INTP]

Tell him that someone on the internets said this; He should had just said her "fuck off BIATCH!!" the first time she cheated on him.

 

[Ene]

Tell him that someone on the internets said this; He should had just said her "fuck off BIATCH!!" the first time she cheated on him.

Thanks, [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION], but he isn't used to hearing me talk like that; so I think I'll paraphrase it and say something more like, "I think you're doing the right thing. You would have been justified in leaving her long ago."

 

[INTP]

Thanks, [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION], but he isn't used to hearing me talk like that; so I think I'll paraphrase it and say something more like, "I think you're doing the right thing. You would have been justified in leaving her long ago."

But how i said it makes the bad decision of him not leaving her earlier come off stronger, so it being the reason for current bad situation puts more focus on him not doing the right thing earlier and this makes it easier to get over it now, because all the other shit kinda gets in the shadow of the past mistake. Sure he might cry about it, but if he focuses more on the mistake of not leaving her earlier its much easier to be strict now and sort of just rip the bandage off fast and not focus on irrelevant shit so much(like "isnt my penis big enough?" or other self doubt for reasons).

 

[Ene]

But how i said it makes the bad decision of him not leaving her earlier come off stronger, so it being the reason for current bad situation puts more focus on him not doing the right thing earlier and this makes it easier to get over it now, because all the other shit kinda gets in the shadow of the past mistake. Sure he might cry about it, but if he focuses more on the mistake of not leaving her earlier its much easier to be strict now and sort of just rip the bandage off fast and not focus on irrelevant shit so much(like "isnt my penis big enough?" or other self doubt for reasons).

LOL...okay, okay...I get your point.

 

[Bilateral Entry]

Depends on where he's at in his personal development. Depends on your relationship with him. I do not think you can use MBTI to generalize the optimal response.

 

[Triforce]

Settle the score, revenge is sweet!

I do not regret one bit giving it back to those who deserved it. I hope they learned from it.

To be fair im not sure you can do much but to keep him busy with other things/people.

 

[Ene]

Actually, he has been texting me this morning. I think he's gonna be all right

 

[zago]

Just remain normal and don't act weird about it. Be who usually are around him. If he starts dwelling on it, listening is ok for a while, but try to help him get his mind on other things. Bring up other topics and think of things to do. He is going to have to move on.

 

[JAVO]

From a slightly different angle... If he and you are open to discussing the situation...

Often, people take infidelity of a partner as a personal attack, or it strikes at the core of their insecurities. It might help some for him to have a very open and honest discussion with his wife to get at the root cause of her behavior. Maybe she is nonconsciously getting revenge for something? Not satisfied physically or mentally? Or maybe she no longer thinks monogamy is right for her? Is that really her perspective, or is she behaving incongruently with her own perspective for physical (hormones, medication, brain tumor, nutrition deficiency) or psychological reasons? It will likely take a skilled counselor to get to the bottom of the issues and how to possibly resolve them. Are they both willing to go to counseling?

Also, although I would've had his perspective at one time, I wouldn't now. Ne drives me to consider all possibilities, and sometimes to deal with them in my mind even though they haven't actually occurred. I concluded that my valuing of personal freedom in others was greater than my expectation or right of possessing exclusive intimacy.

The main point I'm making is that if he leaves, he should leave for the rational reason that they have two different, incompatible and irreconcilable perspectives rather than as a retaliatory reaction.

 

[Lark]

I hope he's alright longer term.

Its a shame his relationship has broken down.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=4489]zago[/MENTION]
those sound like wise words, thanks so much.


[MENTION]QUOTE=JAVO;2162072] Wow, you've brought up things that I hadn't strongly considered. Now, I know why I need an NeTi kind of friend. haha...seriously, thank you.

From a slightly different angle... If he and you are open to discussing the situation...

He's open to talking about it, but I'm not sure how open he is to my advice. haha.

Often, people take infidelity of a partner as a personal attack, or it strikes at the core of their insecurities. It might help some for him to have a very open and honest discussion with his wife to get at the root cause of her behavior. Maybe she is nonconsciously getting revenge for something? Not satisfied physically or mentally?

He tells me that she and he have talked and that she feels he is unemotional and while he is kind, polite and considerate, he is not emotive or romantic and he lacks passion. But on top of being an INTJ, he has been trained his entire life, since childhood to NOT show emotions. He says he has tried to be a more responsive kind of person but he just can't undo a lifetime of training and a personality that is bent that way anyhow. So, I'm thinking that neither one of them have ever truly been able to accept the other for who they are.

Or maybe she no longer thinks monogamy is right for her?
Is that really her perspective, or is she behaving incongruently with her own perspective for physical (hormones, medication, brain tumor, nutrition deficiency) or psychological reasons? It will likely take a skilled counselor to get to the bottom of the issues and how to possibly resolve them.

These are good points. Next time he is open to talking about it, I will ask him if they have considered counseling or have already tired it.

The main point I'm making is that if he leaves, he should leave for the rational reason that they have two different, incompatible and irreconcilable perspectives rather than as a retaliatory reaction.

Thank you. I think this is a healthy way of looking at it.

[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION]...yes, the longer term, that is what I'm thinking of. It is a shame. I hate to see people go through broken relationships, especially broken marriages. I guess I really hope they resolve it, but it's not my call. I'm just there.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=71]JAVO[/MENTION] you've brought up things that I hadn't strongly considered. Now, I know why I need an NeTi kind of friend. haha...seriously, thank you.



He's open to talking about it, but I'm not sure how open he is to my advice. haha.



He tells me that she and he have talked and that she feels he is unemotional and while he is kind, polite and considerate, he is not emotive or romantic and he lacks passion. But on top of being an INTJ, he has been trained his entire life, since childhood to NOT show emotions. He says he has tried to be a more responsive kind of person but he just can't undo a lifetime of training and a personality that is bent that way anyhow. So, I'm thinking that neither one of them have ever truly been able to accept the other for who they are.



These are good points. Next time he is open to talking about it, I will ask him if they have considered counseling or have already tired it.



Thank you. I think this is a healthy way of looking at it.

 

[Coriolis]

Best thing is to keep treating your friend as you always have. Let him see that, although one part of his life may be falling apart, the rest is stable and his friends (or at least you) are not going to change how you treat him or act around him because of this. INTJs don't like pity, and don't like attention called to our misfortunes. We want to preserve the normalcy in our lives as much as possible.

This relates to the trust issue Amargith describes below. Your friend needs to understand that, although one important person in his life has proven untrustworthy, the whole world is not so.

The biggest issue he faces for the future, imho, is the lack of trust. He needs to see that there are women out there who are in fact worthy of his affections, who can love him for who he is and who won't be that callous with his heart. So be an example of that, even if you re just his platonic friend. And help him in the future in identifying an acceptable risk wrt mates. It is my experience that INTJs who have been burned -truly burned and have gone all out, as he has, in giving their heart to someone who stomped on it - tend to doubt their ability to ever pick the right mate, and they often end up cynical, demanding certainty which no mate can live up to and often decide in the end that it is no longer worth it, which means they lock their heart away an become the very person that hurt them in the first place, to protect themselves.

Wow, thank you. I will just be real with him.

It is a bad idea ever to be anything but real with an INTJ - with anyone, really, but especially with us.

But how i said it makes the bad decision of him not leaving her earlier come off stronger, so it being the reason for current bad situation puts more focus on him not doing the right thing earlier and this makes it easier to get over it now, because all the other shit kinda gets in the shadow of the past mistake. Sure he might cry about it, but if he focuses more on the mistake of not leaving her earlier its much easier to be strict now and sort of just rip the bandage off fast and not focus on irrelevant shit so much(like "isnt my penis big enough?" or other self doubt for reasons).

I disagree with this. INTJs know very well when and where we have made mistakes, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Ene's friend is probably already going over and over in his mind all those past incidents, and how he should have made different judgements and taken different actions (whether that really would have been best or not). He is probably berating himself far more thoroughly than anyone else ever could. What he needs from a good friend is not more criticism from the outside, but relatively neutral, objective listening, and gentle affirmation that allows him to absorb these lessons in his own time, while reassuring him that he is acting (finally) in his best interests. If this fellow has made the decision to leave his wife, he has already ripped the bandaid off. It might not look like it to others, because we are very good at keeping other people from seeing just how much it hurts.

The main point I'm making is that if he leaves, he should leave for the rational reason that they have two different, incompatible and irreconcilable perspectives rather than as a retaliatory reaction.

Leaving a habitual cheater is not retaliation, it is self-preservation.

 

[JAVO]

Leaving a habitual cheater is not retaliation, it is self-preservation.

Maybe. It depends on the leaving person's perspective.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] I was so hoping to hear from you. I should've tagged you. It just now occurred to me that I hadn't and I apologize for that, because I highly value your input on this.

Best thing is to keep treating your friend as you always have. Let him see that, although one part of his life may be falling apart, the rest is stable and his friends (or at least you) are not going to change how you treat him or act around him because of this. INTJs don't like pity, and don't like attention called to our misfortunes. We want to preserve the normalcy in our lives as much as possible.

I have kind of picked up on that. I suppose that's why I don't bring the subject up. I let him talk about it when he wants to and if he doesn't mention it, I don't either. I have to admit that I'm sort of the same way. When something's going wrong with my life or with me, I don't like for people to call attention to it or talk about it, so perhaps that is a trait we share in common, but it's good to hear it from you. It verifies it in my mind.
I do love what [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] said.

It is a bad idea ever to be anything but real with an INTJ - with anyone, really, but especially with us.

I agree. So, I will just continue to be my normal self and know that he won't take it as a sign that I'm taking things lightly.

I disagree with this. INTJs know very well when and where we have made mistakes, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Ene's friend is probably already going over and over in his mind all those past incidents, and how he should have made different judgements and taken different actions (whether that really would have been best or not). He is probably berating himself far more thoroughly than anyone else ever could.

Yes! I think you're right and I appreciate hearing it from another INTJ.

What he needs from a good friend is not more criticism from the outside, but relatively neutral, objective listening, and gentle affirmation that allows him to absorb these lessons in his own time, while reassuring him that he is acting (finally) in his best interests.

I agree. That's why, even though I see INTP's point and appreciate the input, I can't talk to my friend that way. I just can't. That is an angle neither of us relate to. He would be offended and I would sound like someone else. It wouldn't be my normal way of communication. He would wonder what was up with me and think I was being disrespectful. This guy is more than my friend, he is my Grand Master [martial arts teacher], and I have an enormous amount of respect for him. He is an important person in my life and I honestly want to be a good friend to him, a source of stability, of strength and encouragement.

If this fellow has made the decision to leave his wife, he has already ripped the bandaid off. It might not look like it to others, because we are very good at keeping other people from seeing just how much it hurts.

I think you are absolutely right. Thank you.

He will probably come up to train with me this weekend [he lives about 45 minutes away]. I think training will be good for him and will help him maintain the sense of normalcy. The other day he told me, via the phone, that he was lonely and bored. That's a weird thing for him to say, to admit that he is lonely.

 

[INTP]

I disagree with this. INTJs know very well when and where we have made mistakes, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Ene's friend is probably already going over and over in his mind all those past incidents, and how he should have made different judgements and taken different actions (whether that really would have been best or not). He is probably berating himself far more thoroughly than anyone else ever could. What he needs from a good friend is not more criticism from the outside, but relatively neutral, objective listening, and gentle affirmation that allows him to absorb these lessons in his own time, while reassuring him that he is acting (finally) in his best interests. If this fellow has made the decision to leave his wife, he has already ripped the bandaid off. It might not look like it to others, because we are very good at keeping other people from seeing just how much it hurts.

There are two different routes on helping him;
The listening tactic thing you mentioned, which will help him to talk and have someone who shows compassions etc, this will help him to review all that came to consciousness from him imagination, all his insecurities and all those what if's and what not. I know that INTJs tend to color their world based on those Ni(which is guided by Fi to some degree) images they get from their head, which are not often really in line with the real world, and that might get them to feel more grim than they would if they werent getting all these imaginative things going through their head, like insecurities and other complexes relating to this issue(which are just creating a negative bias towards himself). This listening tactic will allow them to flourish and if the listener can do a good job, he might be able to point out that some of the insecurities and what not are not realistic and that way help him to get over this thing.

Then there is the tactic i mentioned. What this aims to do is to guide his processing to this more relevant thing(she cheated on him and he should had left that bitch earlier), which will hinder the insecurities from being so strong and possibly some other negative stuff from coming to consciousness(at least so strongly). Which will most likely feel worse for a second(as the bad stuff is just thrown at his face), but also i think it will be easier for him to get over it as there is less shit being processed. Also because this attitude will focus on not the INTJs decisions so much(really only to the one where he should had left her), but more of creating a negative image about the bitch who cheated on him and focus on the fact that she just was a bitch and ofc he couldnt had noticed that early because thats not something she will freely tell in the beginning of their relationship.

While the first approach is more about trying to ease the pain that the INTJ is creating himself from the point of view of consciousness. The second approach is more about tinkering with the INTJs unconscious mind and manipulating it to make it easier for the INTJ to ease his pain himself. I think that best results in trying to get any change in an INTJ is to tinker with their unconscious. As manipulative it might sound like, but INTJs tend to be so hard headed(Ni world ruling their ego) that you cant get anything in through their consciousness(as ego doesent want to change and Ni visions being the most trusted source of their ego and this Ni ego shield thing is to a large degree unconsciously controlled by their Fi).

But ofc if ene doesent feel like she can(or wants) do it my way properly, then ofc my way isnt going to work.