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  1. #21
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    There are two different routes on helping him;
    The listening tactic thing you mentioned, which will help him to talk and have someone who shows compassions etc, this will help him to review all that came to consciousness from him imagination, all his insecurities and all those what if's and what not. I know that INTJs tend to color their world based on those Ni(which is guided by Fi to some degree) images they get from their head, which are not often really in line with the real world, and that might get them to feel more grim than they would if they werent getting all these imaginative things going through their head, like insecurities and other complexes relating to this issue(which are just creating a negative bias towards himself). This listening tactic will allow them to flourish and if the listener can do a good job, he might be able to point out that some of the insecurities and what not are not realistic and that way help him to get over this thing.

    Then there is the tactic i mentioned. What this aims to do is to guide his processing to this more relevant thing(she cheated on him and he should had left that bitch earlier), which will hinder the insecurities from being so strong and possibly some other negative stuff from coming to consciousness(at least so strongly). Which will most likely feel worse for a second(as the bad stuff is just thrown at his face), but also i think it will be easier for him to get over it as there is less shit being processed. Also because this attitude will focus on not the INTJs decisions so much(really only to the one where he should had left her), but more of creating a negative image about the bitch who cheated on him and focus on the fact that she just was a bitch and ofc he couldnt had noticed that early because thats not something she will freely tell in the beginning of their relationship.

    While the first approach is more about trying to ease the pain that the INTJ is creating himself from the point of view of consciousness. The second approach is more about tinkering with the INTJs unconscious mind and manipulating it to make it easier for the INTJ to ease his pain himself. I think that best results in trying to get any change in an INTJ is to tinker with their unconscious. As manipulative it might sound like, but INTJs tend to be so hard headed(Ni world ruling their ego) that you cant get anything in through their consciousness(as ego doesent want to change and Ni visions being the most trusted source of their ego and this Ni ego shield thing is to a large degree unconsciously controlled by their Fi).
    It is not a good idea to try manipulate an INTJs unconscious mind, especially if you want them to consider you a friend. You are underestimating the role of aux Te in how INTJs deal with situations like this. It is not so much NI-Fi images that fill our minds, as the same kind of critical Te analysis that we apply to everything else. If anything, we see in hindsight all those facts and objective details that we were either unwilling to see or at least willing to overlook before, in the interests of preserving what we considered a greater good, in the case, the relationship.

    The purpose of my suggested approach is not to make the INTJ feel better about the situation, or even to show compassion. It is essentially to be a neutral sounding board, helping him focus on the facts of the situation so those Te self-judgements are as realistic and productive as possible. The friend should thus offer neither criticism like the highlighted statement in paragraph 2, nor empty coddling, nor even badmouthing of the cheating wife. Just affirmation of the bare facts of the matter, and support to the INTJ in dealing with them. We don't need other people to try to make us feel better, or to try to solve our problems. In fact, the first will seem empty, and the second futile or even patronizing. Especially with personal problems like this, we have to solve them by ourselves. Friends can certainly help, but they cannot do the work for us.

    Bottom line: the best response from a friend is neither consolation nor criticism, but neutral reflection of the facts, and consistent friendly and trustworthy behavior.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #22
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is not a good idea to try manipulate an INTJs unconscious mind, especially if you want them to consider you a friend. You are underestimating the role of aux Te in how INTJs deal with situations like this. It is not so much NI-Fi images that fill our minds, as the same kind of critical Te analysis that we apply to everything else. If anything, we see in hindsight all those facts and objective details that we were either unwilling to see or at least willing to overlook before, in the interests of preserving what we considered a greater good, in the case, the relationship.
    My suggestion does take Te into account; "she is a bitch". Also i might had misworded a bit, but its not the unconscious mind that would be manipulated, but how the conscious mind relates to the impulses coming from the unconscious, and this would have an effect on how the unconscious mind focuses aswell. I kinda disagree that it would be a bad idea to manipulate and INTJ(as long as its done for something positive), its really not even that hard to do, as long as you can see where the walls are placed and not try to force anything(in which case there will only be a stronger resistance to anything that you say to them).

    Also i think that this might be different for INTJ females and males, and naturally how blunt you can be depends on the situation.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    My suggestion does take Te into account; "she is a bitch". Also i might had misworded a bit, but its not the unconscious mind that would be manipulated, but how the conscious mind relates to the impulses coming from the unconscious, and this would have an effect on how the unconscious mind focuses aswell. I kinda disagree that it would be a bad idea to manipulate and INTJ(as long as its done for something positive), its really not even that hard to do, as long as you can see where the walls are placed and not try to force anything(in which case there will only be a stronger resistance to anything that you say to them).

    Also i think that this might be different for INTJ females and males, and naturally how blunt you can be depends on the situation.
    "She's a bitch" is a value judgement, coming more from the Fi that values fidelity and trustworthiness. Te will tally up exactly what was done to break that trust, identifying clues that should have been noticed, questions that should have been asked, things that should have been done. In short, all the reasons for characterizing her as a bitch.

    I am not saying it is never useful to be blunt or even harsh with an INTJ in these circumstances, just that the harshness should not cross the line into direct criticism or making value judgements for them. For instance, instead of saying, "she's a bitch; you should have left her long ago"*, better to enumerate the reasons as plainly as possible: "she cheated on you at least 3 times before this; she lied to you about X, Y, and Z; you have already given her the benefit of the doubt on many occasions; etc." The INTJ can and in fact must put the pieces together him/herself for the conclusion to be trusted. The most a friend can do is to make sure they are all in the box and turned rightside up. If the picture he/she arrives at is not what you expected, that's OK, since you the friend are not the one who has the box lid.

    Good luck manipulating the INTJs in your life. If you want to retain or regain their trust, you will have to give them quite convincing proof that the manipulation saved them from enormous disaster when nothing else would have worked. Also, don't overestimate the effect of gender. I have found type trumps gender every time, especially with my own type.

    * It's not even that it's wrong to say this. The INTJ will appreciate it as show of support. It is the other type of discussion that will be more useful, though.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    My suggestion does take Te into account; "she is a bitch". Also i might had misworded a bit, but its not the unconscious mind that would be manipulated, but how the conscious mind relates to the impulses coming from the unconscious, and this would have an effect on how the unconscious mind focuses aswell. I kinda disagree that it would be a bad idea to manipulate and INTJ(as long as its done for something positive), its really not even that hard to do, as long as you can see where the walls are placed and not try to force anything(in which case there will only be a stronger resistance to anything that you say to them).

    Also i think that this might be different for INTJ females and males, and naturally how blunt you can be depends on the situation.
    You need to seriously listen to @Coriolis here. The idea of manipulating an INTJ is pretty hilarious. Because quite honestly Ne types are the types that THINK they are some kind of magical ninja when to an INTJ we are wearing tap shoes on a metal floor while eating chips and whipping our cellophane packaged arms around.

    If you think you know where the walls are placed, you are wrong. They are smoke and mirrors with the illusion of cheesecake.

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    "She's a bitch" is a value judgement, coming more from the Fi that values fidelity and trustworthiness.
    T defines things and there is no value judgment there, a value judgment would be when you think about whether something is good or bad. Sure a cheating bitch isnt a positive thing(the value thing is implicit, since its something that the other person makes up for the word bitch), but regardless of whether you think it is a positive or negative thing, a cheating bitch is a cheating bitch, thats a fact(if we go by certain definitions which T makes), not a value judgment.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  6. #26
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    You need to seriously listen to Coriolis here. The idea of manipulating an INTJ is pretty hilarious. Because quite honestly Ne types are the types that THINK they are some kind of magical ninja when to an INTJ we are wearing tap shoes on a metal floor while eating chips and whipping our cellophane packaged arms around.

    If you think you know where the walls are placed, you are wrong. They are smoke and mirrors with the illusion of cheesecake.
    Sorry but having had an close INTJ friend for 14 years, i can spot the walls pretty easily(and know how to spot them without the INTJ noticing that i noticed, also i do recognize when there is too much resistance, which most of the time is the case cuz.. well INTJ) and smoke or mirrors doesent do any good. Also poking at the walls is pretty fun and i have succeeded to even poke some holes in them
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #27
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    T defines things and there is no value judgment there, a value judgment would be when you think about whether something is good or bad. Sure a cheating bitch isnt a positive thing(the value thing is implicit, since its something that the other person makes up for the word bitch), but regardless of whether you think it is a positive or negative thing, a cheating bitch is a cheating bitch, thats a fact(if we go by certain definitions which T makes), not a value judgment.
    If you consider "bitch" an objective designation, like "liar" then this would be correct. I consider it subjective, however, hence in the realm of Fi, supported of course by those Te evaluations.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Sorry but having had an close INTJ friend for 14 years, i can spot the walls pretty easily(and know how to spot them without the INTJ noticing that i noticed, also i do recognize when there is too much resistance, which most of the time is the case cuz.. well INTJ) and smoke or mirrors doesent do any good. Also poking at the walls is pretty fun and i have succeeded to even poke some holes in them
    My INTJ decided to teach me the ways of his kind.

    Lesson #1: Never show your cards.
    Lesson #2: Unless showing your cards is a part of your plan to not show your cards.
    Lesson #3: So then show your cards.

    Also, even if at this point in your relationship you think you know where your walls are, it's because the INTJ is letting you and if your security access card needs to be revoked it can and will be at any time sans warning.

    Also, I know the INTP ilk and there is nothing subtle about what any of you guys do ever. It's not a bad thing. But it is a thing.

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    My INTJ decided to teach me the ways of his kind.

    Lesson #1: Never show your cards.
    Lesson #2: Unless showing your cards is a part of your plan to not show your cards.
    Lesson #3: So then show your cards.

    Also, even if at this point in your relationship you think you know where your walls are, it's because the INTJ is letting you and if your security access card needs to be revoked it can and will be at any time sans warning.
    Don't think that because you encounter and "overcome" resistance that it was not somehow wanted, and part of the plan, or at least the hope. It can be very hard to let down the resistance, so you will still feel it. We know what you are doing, though, and will let you proceed because somehow we understand we need it. This is how you know we consider you a friend.

    As for the rest, Saturned, your INTJ may have to turn in his credentials if he keeps divulging our secrets like this.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Don't think that because you encounter and "overcome" resistance that it was not somehow wanted, and part of the plan, or at least the hope. It can be very hard to let down the resistance, so you will still feel it. We know what you are doing, though, and will let you proceed because somehow we understand we need it. This is how you know we consider you a friend.
    Oh, interesting. It's difficult to push much since I hate intruding. But once I see I am allowed then I do it to the extent that I can do it with hands open palmed so they know what my intentions are.

    As for the rest, Saturned, your INTJ may have to turn in his credentials if he keeps divulging our secrets like this.
    *looks up from her notes in regards to lesson 27*

    Oops!

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