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  1. #11
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Actually, he has been texting me this morning. I think he's gonna be all right
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #12
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Just remain normal and don't act weird about it. Be who usually are around him. If he starts dwelling on it, listening is ok for a while, but try to help him get his mind on other things. Bring up other topics and think of things to do. He is going to have to move on.

  3. #13
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    From a slightly different angle... If he and you are open to discussing the situation...

    Often, people take infidelity of a partner as a personal attack, or it strikes at the core of their insecurities. It might help some for him to have a very open and honest discussion with his wife to get at the root cause of her behavior. Maybe she is nonconsciously getting revenge for something? Not satisfied physically or mentally? Or maybe she no longer thinks monogamy is right for her? Is that really her perspective, or is she behaving incongruently with her own perspective for physical (hormones, medication, brain tumor, nutrition deficiency) or psychological reasons? It will likely take a skilled counselor to get to the bottom of the issues and how to possibly resolve them. Are they both willing to go to counseling?

    Also, although I would've had his perspective at one time, I wouldn't now. Ne drives me to consider all possibilities, and sometimes to deal with them in my mind even though they haven't actually occurred. I concluded that my valuing of personal freedom in others was greater than my expectation or right of possessing exclusive intimacy.

    The main point I'm making is that if he leaves, he should leave for the rational reason that they have two different, incompatible and irreconcilable perspectives rather than as a retaliatory reaction.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I hope he's alright longer term.

    Its a shame his relationship has broken down.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @zago
    those sound like wise words, thanks so much.


    @...yes, the longer term, that is what I'm thinking of. It is a shame. I hate to see people go through broken relationships, especially broken marriages. I guess I really hope they resolve it, but it's not my call. I'm just there.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  6. #16
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @JAVO you've brought up things that I hadn't strongly considered. Now, I know why I need an NeTi kind of friend. haha...seriously, thank you.



    He's open to talking about it, but I'm not sure how open he is to my advice. haha.



    He tells me that she and he have talked and that she feels he is unemotional and while he is kind, polite and considerate, he is not emotive or romantic and he lacks passion. But on top of being an INTJ, he has been trained his entire life, since childhood to NOT show emotions. He says he has tried to be a more responsive kind of person but he just can't undo a lifetime of training and a personality that is bent that way anyhow. So, I'm thinking that neither one of them have ever truly been able to accept the other for who they are.



    These are good points. Next time he is open to talking about it, I will ask him if they have considered counseling or have already tired it.



    Thank you. I think this is a healthy way of looking at it.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  7. #17
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Best thing is to keep treating your friend as you always have. Let him see that, although one part of his life may be falling apart, the rest is stable and his friends (or at least you) are not going to change how you treat him or act around him because of this. INTJs don't like pity, and don't like attention called to our misfortunes. We want to preserve the normalcy in our lives as much as possible.

    This relates to the trust issue Amargith describes below. Your friend needs to understand that, although one important person in his life has proven untrustworthy, the whole world is not so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The biggest issue he faces for the future, imho, is the lack of trust. He needs to see that there are women out there who are in fact worthy of his affections, who can love him for who he is and who won't be that callous with his heart. So be an example of that, even if you re just his platonic friend. And help him in the future in identifying an acceptable risk wrt mates. It is my experience that INTJs who have been burned -truly burned and have gone all out, as he has, in giving their heart to someone who stomped on it - tend to doubt their ability to ever pick the right mate, and they often end up cynical, demanding certainty which no mate can live up to and often decide in the end that it is no longer worth it, which means they lock their heart away an become the very person that hurt them in the first place, to protect themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Wow, thank you. I will just be real with him.
    It is a bad idea ever to be anything but real with an INTJ - with anyone, really, but especially with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    But how i said it makes the bad decision of him not leaving her earlier come off stronger, so it being the reason for current bad situation puts more focus on him not doing the right thing earlier and this makes it easier to get over it now, because all the other shit kinda gets in the shadow of the past mistake. Sure he might cry about it, but if he focuses more on the mistake of not leaving her earlier its much easier to be strict now and sort of just rip the bandage off fast and not focus on irrelevant shit so much(like "isnt my penis big enough?" or other self doubt for reasons).
    I disagree with this. INTJs know very well when and where we have made mistakes, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Ene's friend is probably already going over and over in his mind all those past incidents, and how he should have made different judgements and taken different actions (whether that really would have been best or not). He is probably berating himself far more thoroughly than anyone else ever could. What he needs from a good friend is not more criticism from the outside, but relatively neutral, objective listening, and gentle affirmation that allows him to absorb these lessons in his own time, while reassuring him that he is acting (finally) in his best interests. If this fellow has made the decision to leave his wife, he has already ripped the bandaid off. It might not look like it to others, because we are very good at keeping other people from seeing just how much it hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    The main point I'm making is that if he leaves, he should leave for the rational reason that they have two different, incompatible and irreconcilable perspectives rather than as a retaliatory reaction.
    Leaving a habitual cheater is not retaliation, it is self-preservation.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #18
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Leaving a habitual cheater is not retaliation, it is self-preservation.
    Maybe. It depends on the leaving person's perspective.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @Coriolis I was so hoping to hear from you. I should've tagged you. It just now occurred to me that I hadn't and I apologize for that, because I highly value your input on this.

    Best thing is to keep treating your friend as you always have. Let him see that, although one part of his life may be falling apart, the rest is stable and his friends (or at least you) are not going to change how you treat him or act around him because of this. INTJs don't like pity, and don't like attention called to our misfortunes. We want to preserve the normalcy in our lives as much as possible.
    I have kind of picked up on that. I suppose that's why I don't bring the subject up. I let him talk about it when he wants to and if he doesn't mention it, I don't either. I have to admit that I'm sort of the same way. When something's going wrong with my life or with me, I don't like for people to call attention to it or talk about it, so perhaps that is a trait we share in common, but it's good to hear it from you. It verifies it in my mind.
    I do love what @Amargith said.

    It is a bad idea ever to be anything but real with an INTJ - with anyone, really, but especially with us.
    I agree. So, I will just continue to be my normal self and know that he won't take it as a sign that I'm taking things lightly.

    I disagree with this. INTJs know very well when and where we have made mistakes, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Ene's friend is probably already going over and over in his mind all those past incidents, and how he should have made different judgements and taken different actions (whether that really would have been best or not). He is probably berating himself far more thoroughly than anyone else ever could.
    Yes! I think you're right and I appreciate hearing it from another INTJ.

    What he needs from a good friend is not more criticism from the outside, but relatively neutral, objective listening, and gentle affirmation that allows him to absorb these lessons in his own time, while reassuring him that he is acting (finally) in his best interests.
    I agree. That's why, even though I see INTP's point and appreciate the input, I can't talk to my friend that way. I just can't. That is an angle neither of us relate to. He would be offended and I would sound like someone else. It wouldn't be my normal way of communication. He would wonder what was up with me and think I was being disrespectful. This guy is more than my friend, he is my Grand Master [martial arts teacher], and I have an enormous amount of respect for him. He is an important person in my life and I honestly want to be a good friend to him, a source of stability, of strength and encouragement.

    If this fellow has made the decision to leave his wife, he has already ripped the bandaid off. It might not look like it to others, because we are very good at keeping other people from seeing just how much it hurts.
    I think you are absolutely right. Thank you.

    He will probably come up to train with me this weekend [he lives about 45 minutes away]. I think training will be good for him and will help him maintain the sense of normalcy. The other day he told me, via the phone, that he was lonely and bored. That's a weird thing for him to say, to admit that he is lonely.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I disagree with this. INTJs know very well when and where we have made mistakes, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Ene's friend is probably already going over and over in his mind all those past incidents, and how he should have made different judgements and taken different actions (whether that really would have been best or not). He is probably berating himself far more thoroughly than anyone else ever could. What he needs from a good friend is not more criticism from the outside, but relatively neutral, objective listening, and gentle affirmation that allows him to absorb these lessons in his own time, while reassuring him that he is acting (finally) in his best interests. If this fellow has made the decision to leave his wife, he has already ripped the bandaid off. It might not look like it to others, because we are very good at keeping other people from seeing just how much it hurts.
    There are two different routes on helping him;
    The listening tactic thing you mentioned, which will help him to talk and have someone who shows compassions etc, this will help him to review all that came to consciousness from him imagination, all his insecurities and all those what if's and what not. I know that INTJs tend to color their world based on those Ni(which is guided by Fi to some degree) images they get from their head, which are not often really in line with the real world, and that might get them to feel more grim than they would if they werent getting all these imaginative things going through their head, like insecurities and other complexes relating to this issue(which are just creating a negative bias towards himself). This listening tactic will allow them to flourish and if the listener can do a good job, he might be able to point out that some of the insecurities and what not are not realistic and that way help him to get over this thing.

    Then there is the tactic i mentioned. What this aims to do is to guide his processing to this more relevant thing(she cheated on him and he should had left that bitch earlier), which will hinder the insecurities from being so strong and possibly some other negative stuff from coming to consciousness(at least so strongly). Which will most likely feel worse for a second(as the bad stuff is just thrown at his face), but also i think it will be easier for him to get over it as there is less shit being processed. Also because this attitude will focus on not the INTJs decisions so much(really only to the one where he should had left her), but more of creating a negative image about the bitch who cheated on him and focus on the fact that she just was a bitch and ofc he couldnt had noticed that early because thats not something she will freely tell in the beginning of their relationship.

    While the first approach is more about trying to ease the pain that the INTJ is creating himself from the point of view of consciousness. The second approach is more about tinkering with the INTJs unconscious mind and manipulating it to make it easier for the INTJ to ease his pain himself. I think that best results in trying to get any change in an INTJ is to tinker with their unconscious. As manipulative it might sound like, but INTJs tend to be so hard headed(Ni world ruling their ego) that you cant get anything in through their consciousness(as ego doesent want to change and Ni visions being the most trusted source of their ego and this Ni ego shield thing is to a large degree unconsciously controlled by their Fi).

    But ofc if ene doesent feel like she can(or wants) do it my way properly, then ofc my way isnt going to work.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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