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[INTJ] Why do people hate INTJs?

Obsidius

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Yeah yo, I'm more of a "working facts" kind of guy. I don't need to know every damn term or detail about a subject. Using wit, creativity, and quickness, I can run circles around just about anyone in an argument. And you're right about pissing people off, though I will generally try to keep it at total frustration.

And to bring up my bro again (only INTJ I know well IRL), I mean he's a fuckin' surgeon but while he is still a very good debater, he doesn't even try with me anymore. I'll either smoke him with clever thinking backed up with at least some facts, or embarrass him at the dinner table for some fallacy he made.

You shall now be called, Dances With Words. Well maybe not yet, we'll have to see what ya got ; )

Haha well, I apparently give off the vibe that I know everything about a subject? A lot of my friends say they find me scary to argue with, because I'll speak out about something I've never talked about before, and apparently seem to know nearly everything about it, which is very strange. Haha yeah frustration if really fun.
Many INTJ's do get stuck in the pure knowledge rather than the fallacious nature of arguments, or different logical accidents that make their arguments weak. Which is why I do exactly what you do, to counter the other INTJ's and INTP's out there (and ENTP's), because (I know this sounds elitist as fuck), but they're honestly the only people I have trouble with in debates.

Haha okay we shall see, I shall prove myself worthy of such a title!
 

Coriolis

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I'm told the fact that I assume people know the words I'm using and didn't initially Gage what words to use based on certain criteria I had asbergian traits which I think are just natural traits for an NT...

So imagine going up to a guy and talking for five minutes using the words, "benign, zenith, nadir, counterpoint, facetious" words like that which we take for granted and thinking the other "guy" is paying attention when really he is thinking to himself, "this guy is a total douche bag, doesn't he know I didn't graduate from a good highschool. Is he trying to make me look dumb?"
I try never to talk down to someone, though. I don't assume they won't understand what I say unless they act like they aren't understanding. If I am speaking with someone who uses a word I don't know, I'll ask them to explain it.
 

Obsidius

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hmmm...this is interesting.

I've oft' wondered if I was an INTJ because in real life I tend to be very quiet if not engaged in an interest...

I tend to say things like, "good evening, hello, good afternoon, yes sir, have a great day, indeed, etc..." very robotic impersonal greetings for lack of being more dynamic and warm in that regard, and I get a sense it throws people off because the common man or woman is not used to these Victorian styled greetings - I blame it on reading, the more I read the more removed I become from the status quo.

That being said, when I am talking about goals, objectives, working out, guitar, quantum physics in the new age philosophical sense, and talking about objective facts, many of which even other entj's and intj's fail to recognize, such as the fact that ideas exist outside of our thought space, which is verifiable by the very fact that any invention before conception is invented in at least half a dozen other places on the planet, I often times mentally mind blast the other person with a slew of words and facts beyond the horizon of their mind-space, for lack of better word.

But if you really know me I kick back and I'm like, "groovy dude" and we just kind of chill and I end up being quite silly like Charlie, but you know it goes like that, the dance....

Here's the other thing too...I notice this with INTJ's and it's been said about me - we tend to have something else going on in the background of our minds while being present, it seems we are always plotting or scheming when we are intuitively feeling out things using introverted intuition....it seems intentional and malignant but it's really just how we process.

To an ESTP this could seem sort of villainous, to not be fully present, or to always think things out for yourself based on the future.

I'm told the fact that I assume people know the words I'm using and didn't initially Gage what words to use based on certain criteria I had asbergian traits which I think are just natural traits for an NT...

So imagine going up to a guy and talking for five minutes using the words, "benign, zenith, nadir, counterpoint, facetious" words like that which we take for granted and thinking the other "guy" is paying attention when really he is thinking to himself, "this guy is a total douche bag, doesn't he know I didn't graduate from a good highschool. Is he trying to make me look dumb?"

Yeah even with those basic greetings/mannerisms, you're more sociable than me... I fail to even say "good" in response to things sometimes, I just quietly and awkwardly smile and nod. But if I hear some religious fundamentalist trying to sell some pro-life shit to someone, I'm on them like a fucking cat. And I believe you're talking about the zeitgeist of ideas? A philosophical idea what we almost... Access a cloud of information when we think, for lack of a better description, it's a strange thing to explain... But yeah, a lot of INTJ's would relate to the mind blast thing, I find INTP's also do this, we kind of explode with a stream of rationality and factual evidence that can almost have a knock back effect...

And omg, I actually find it annoying when people pretend to know some of the vocabulary I use, because you can tell after a while that their eyes have glazed over, and any information you are convering is going through one ear and right out the other.

Weird how I can relate to nearly all of what you said... Except for talking about goals, guitar and working out... (No offence) I find those things uninteresting, too pragmatic. I can't talk though, I talk about video games with some people, which is benign to a greater extend, well, arguably so.
 

BadOctopus

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fc,550x550,creme.jpg
 

GarrotTheThief

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I disagree with this notion. I see this as an advertising thing and advertising is the evil demon spawn of Freud's hatred for his father due to excessive cocaine use.

On a serious note though,

I'm aware that some people believe that true genius is dumb-ing down a very complicated notion into bite size pieces for the majority, but I think we hit critical mass now, you know, in 2015, and everything is in a liminal state where what we believed in the 1800's is no longer true...this notion of course, of dumb-ing down, coming from that era's Aristocracy.

I mean there is a balance of course and then there is the effect on the person where by which they seek to learn the word and become influenced for the better by you...

Or we can go with what sells....and do the diet coke...do you do the diet coke? It's a new dance.
 

GarrotTheThief

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I try never to talk down to someone, though. I don't assume they won't understand what I say unless they act like they aren't understanding. If I am speaking with someone who uses a word I don't know, I'll ask them to explain it.

Yeah...I'm not intentionally doing it.

My error is in not assuming that they are deft in the vocabulary department. I tend to treat everyone equally so I assume we all know certain words and take it for granted that my education was decent.

But I see what you mean. By your logic, it's not my error in the first place, and the other person might ask me what the word means. But I find people don't and then they fear talking to me in front of others.

I tend to get a long with people who are 20 years my age for this reason.

The irony is I find people who graduated from top notch universities have severe deficits in vocabulary, nearly as much as the street ruffians I've mingled with, for lack of upkeep after graduation - a shame.

It's sad...why would let your vocabulary decay after going to a top notch university to the level of a total stoner. I guess the Kardashian infects even the most "pristinely" educated.
 

Coriolis

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I disagree with this notion. I see this as an advertising thing and advertising is the evil demon spawn of Freud's hatred for his father due to excessive cocaine use.

On a serious note though,

I'm aware that some people believe that true genius is dumb-ing down a very complicated notion into bite size pieces for the majority, but I think we hit critical mass now, you know, in 2015, and everything is in a liminal state where what we believed in the 1800's is no longer true...this notion of course, of dumb-ing down, coming from that era's Aristocracy.

I mean there is a balance of course and then there is the effect on the person where by which they seek to learn the word and become influenced for the better by you...

Or we can go with what sells....and do the diet coke...do you do the diet coke? It's a new dance.
Words exist for a reason. Different words for the same thing rarely mean exactly the same thing. Sometimes one is just better than another, like the 8 mm allen key vs the 5/16 one when you really do have a metric screw. As they say about tools, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
 

grey_beard

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I have an INTJ (male)in one of my classes. He couldn't be farther from a narcissist if he tried. Sure, he's wired passion hewn beneath his skin; it's extremely hard not to notice that he is always onto something. Always perceiving, constantly thinking. You can see it in his eyes, the way his hands tense as he holds his pen; the rest of him, almost perfectly still. I only discovered his type after having the guy in on our group project. His intensity rendered me helpless. I had to call him out on it, subtly. I don't think anyone else noticed our exchange. After we were able to begin really talking, alone, I've discovered a world of passion and desire to use the pain of his past to the benefit of others. If this is representative of all INTJs.... holy crap! Stoic isn't the word.
Just be warned. There is acetylene in the freezer. Thaw *carefully*. Keep away from open flame.
 

grey_beard

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I disagree with this notion. I see this as an advertising thing and advertising is the evil demon spawn of Freud's hatred for his father due to excessive cocaine use.

On a serious note though,

I'm aware that some people believe that true genius is dumb-ing down a very complicated notion into bite size pieces for the majority, but I think we hit critical mass now, you know, in 2015, and everything is in a liminal state where what we believed in the 1800's is no longer true...this notion of course, of dumb-ing down, coming from that era's Aristocracy.

I mean there is a balance of course and then there is the effect on the person where by which they seek to learn the word and become influenced for the better by you...

Or we can go with what sells....and do the diet coke...do you do the diet coke? It's a new dance.

As for the bolded -- both Dick Feynman and C.S. Lewis subscribed to this : "If you can't explain something (to a class of physics freshmen) / (in words of one syllable)" then you don't really understand it yourself.
 

GarrotTheThief

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As for the bolded -- both Dick Feynman and C.S. Lewis subscribed to this : "If you can't explain something (to a class of physics freshmen) / (in words of one syllable)" then you don't really understand it yourself.


Again, I've heard that quotation, but we can't just blindly follow quotations. Benjamin Franklin said a penny saved is a penny earned and he was quite wrong in most contexts,...so we can't always just go by random quotations that are used out of context.

But again, I see the wisdom.
 

GarrotTheThief

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Words exist for a reason. Different words for the same thing rarely mean exactly the same thing. Sometimes one is just better than another, like the 8 mm allen key vs the 5/16 one when you really do have a metric screw. As they say about tools, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

totally agree with you here...:)
 

Coriolis

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As for the bolded -- both Dick Feynman and C.S. Lewis subscribed to this : "If you can't explain something (to a class of physics freshmen) / (in words of one syllable)" then you don't really understand it yourself.
If someone needs things explained in words of one syllable, he/she doesn't belong in a physics classroom.

(As someone about to teach freshman physics, I do hope I am not wrong about this.)
 

uumlau

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If someone needs things explained in words of one syllable, he/she doesn't belong in a physics classroom.

(As someone about to teach freshman physics, I do hope I am not wrong about this.)

Hahahah!

You're both right, though you seem to be misunderstanding the quote(s). Lewis said "words of one syllable", which is not as applicable to physics as most other topics. Also, Lewis was using a bit of hyperbole, as it is nigh impossible to say anything with words of one syllable.

Feynman was talking about explaining to physics freshmen, not using super-simple words. Heck, in physics, half the problem of teaching physics at that early level are all the technical words that have very specific meanings but also have colloquial meanings (energy, force, work, etc.) .

So, no you don't need to use small words, but as a freshman physics class, there are going to be a lot of non-physicists in there fulfilling some kind of science requirement. One of the interesting things I learned back in my teaching days that even the ones that are REALLY GOOD at math, acing entrance exams, able to differentiate and integrate trigonometric functions ... well, um, I learned that if I changed one small-but-significant thing, such as identifying the compliment of an angle instead of the angle, they'd get everything all wrong. They often had no intuitive understanding of math, even trigonometry or calculus - they had only mastered the mechanics of performing calculations.

Eventually I learned to explain things in two styles. One, we might call the intuitive style. I could wave my hands, explain how everything works, explain how the math describes the physical situation, and about 10-30% of my students would understand that. The other style is more of a mechanical style, which we might consider the "sensing" style. I described a kind of problem, then I provided the formulaic means of solving that problem, step by step. This, by the way, was my self-introduction into typology, decades before I learned about MBTI and had words to describe it. These experiences I believe helped me understand typology much faster than I might have otherwise.

Finally, don't be TOO intimidated by the Feynman quote. As awesome as his Lectures are, they are NOT geared toward freshman physics classes, but rather Caltech Freshman physics classes. (I am familiar with such lectures.) Feynman's classes, from which the lectures derived, didn't only have freshman in them, but lots of graduate students and faculty, as he was already quite the celebrity back in those days. Much of his lectures were geared toward the more advanced part of his audience, as if to say, "Hey, isn't this a clever way to describe this elementary concept?!"

Feynman was very good at explaining things in laymen's terms (e.g., his Messenger lectures), but even then he was hitting things at an advanced, intuitive level, aimed at intuitive laymen interested in science. What you'll be having to do is a bit more rudimentary and mechanical, for the benefit of your students.
 

grey_beard

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If someone needs things explained in words of one syllable, he/she doesn't belong in a physics classroom.

(As someone about to teach freshman physics, I do hope I am not wrong about this.)

I was trying to be *too* concise, and I apologize.
Feynman said, "If you can't explain things to a class of physics freshmen, then you don't really understand it." (He used the example of nuclear spin...which
example I'm thinking you'll appreciate. ;)).
C.S. Lewis said, "If you can't explain your concept in words of one syllable, then you don't really understand it." This is a pithy restatement of an example given by Chesterton in his book Orthodoxy:

Most of the machinery of modern language is labour-saving machinery; and it saves mental labour very much more than it ought. Scientific phrases are used like scientific wheels and piston-rods to make swifter and smoother yet the path of the comfortable. Long words go rattling by us like long railway trains. We know they are carrying thousands who are too tired or too indolent to walk and think for themselves. It is a good exercise to try for once in a way to express any opinion one holds in words of one syllable. If you say "The social utility of the indeterminate sentence is recognized by all criminologists as a part of our sociological evolution towards a more humane and scientific view of punishment," you can go on talking like that for hours with hardly a movement of the gray matter inside your skull. But if you begin "I wish Jones to go to gaol and Brown to say when Jones shall come out," you will discover, with a thrill of horror, that you are obliged to think. The long words are not the hard words, it is the short words that are hard. [...]

But these long comfortable words that save modern people the toil of reasoning have one particular aspect in which they are especially ruinous and confusing. This difficulty occurs when the same long word is used in different connections to mean quite different things. Thus, to take a well-known instance, the word "idealist" has one meaning as a piece of philosophy and quite another as a piece of moral rhetoric. In the same way the scientific materialists have had just reason to complain of people mixing up "materialist" as a term of cosmology with "materialist" as a moral taunt. So, to take a cheaper instance, the man who hates "progressives" in London always calls himself a "progressive" in South Africa.
 

Coriolis

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You're both right, though you seem to be misunderstanding the quote(s). Lewis said "words of one syllable", which is not as applicable to physics as most other topics. Also, Lewis was using a bit of hyperbole, as it is nigh impossible to say anything with words of one syllable.
Yes, I see now - as [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION] acknowledged, he was being "too concise". I convolved the two quotes, being relatively unfamiliar with the works of Lewis. I have read some of Feynman, but have found my own preferred texts over the years that made the difference to my personal understanding of this topic or that. What I have read of and by Feynman has unfortunately diminished the respect I should feel for his scientific accomplishments by making me aware of what a sexist jerk he was, both in and out of the classroom.

Feynman was talking about explaining to physics freshmen, not using super-simple words. Heck, in physics, half the problem of teaching physics at that early level are all the technical words that have very specific meanings but also have colloquial meanings (energy, force, work, etc.)
No kidding. Try explaining to fourth graders why things have color.

So, no you don't need to use small words, but as a freshman physics class, there are going to be a lot of non-physicists in there fulfilling some kind of science requirement. One of the interesting things I learned back in my teaching days that even the ones that are REALLY GOOD at math, acing entrance exams, able to differentiate and integrate trigonometric functions ... well, um, I learned that if I changed one small-but-significant thing, such as identifying the compliment of an angle instead of the angle, they'd get everything all wrong. They often had no intuitive understanding of math, even trigonometry or calculus - they had only mastered the mechanics of performing calculations.

Eventually I learned to explain things in two styles. One, we might call the intuitive style. I could wave my hands, explain how everything works, explain how the math describes the physical situation, and about 10-30% of my students would understand that. The other style is more of a mechanical style, which we might consider the "sensing" style. I described a kind of problem, then I provided the formulaic means of solving that problem, step by step. This, by the way, was my self-introduction into typology, decades before I learned about MBTI and had words to describe it. These experiences I believe helped me understand typology much faster than I might have otherwise.
My class will be all physics and engineering majors this time. (Last time it was health professions.) I try, as with the fourth graders, to make them give me the answer. This way (1) they are more likely to appreciate and retain it; and (2) I get more insight as the instructor as to how they reason through things.

Finally, don't be TOO intimidated by the Feynman quote.
Not to worry - no chance of that.
 

BadOctopus

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Oh, dear. You guys have hit upon a touchy subject for me. See, as ridiculously inconsistent and contradictory as it is, I love the English language. I love words. They can be so beautiful and expressive. And I hate this current PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocabulary to make things easier for the masses to understand. Like rewriting classic literature. Come on. It's not going to kill people to look up some new words. It's good exercise for the brain.

You might be saying, "What the hell, BadOctopus? You're an INTJ. You value being succinct and to-the-point." And that's true. It annoys me when people use a hundred words to say something that could have been said in ten. But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words.

Sigh. Okay, I'm done ranting. Just don't get me started on No Fear Shakespeare.
 

Ene

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Oh, dear. You guys have hit upon a touchy subject for me. See, as ridiculously inconsistent and contradictory as it is, I love the English language. I love words. They can be so beautiful and expressive. And I hate this current PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocabulary to make things easier for the masses to understand. Like rewriting classic literature. Come on. It's not going to kill people to look up some new words. It's good exercise for the brain.

You might be saying, "What the hell, BadOctopus? You're an INTJ. You value being succinct and to-the-point." And that's true. It annoys me when people use a hundred words to say something that could have been said in ten. But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words.

Sigh. Okay, I'm done ranting. Just don't get me started on No Fear Shakespeare.

Bad Octopus, I really liked your rant. You only spoke what I so often think concerning language and vocabulary. Also, I share the distaste for using a hundred words for what could be said in ten. I think a part of being a good writer is learning to get the most bang for your buck vocabulary-wise. Hence, I agree with, "But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words."

Touching on Lewis, [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION] and I have spoken of him before. No single writer has influenced my thinking more and while our writing styles are far apart, separated by culture and years, our ways of seeing, of thinking, are not. I connect with Lewis. If there were any way possible (which I know there is not) to have a conversation with an author from the past, he'd be my first choice."

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] haha...I have tried to explain why things have color to fourth graders, then I got sent to work with first graders and they have to be taught why things have color, too. It took me three years of actually being in a classroom to learn how to communicate with six year olds, but I'm pretty good at it now. The only thing I worry about is that I may now talk to adults like they're six year olds.
 

grey_beard

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Oh, dear. You guys have hit upon a touchy subject for me. See, as ridiculously inconsistent and contradictory as it is, I love the English language. I love words. They can be so beautiful and expressive. And I hate this current PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocabulary to make things easier for the masses to understand. Like rewriting classic literature. Come on. It's not going to kill people to look up some new words. It's good exercise for the brain.

You might be saying, "What the hell, BadOctopus? You're an INTJ. You value being succinct and to-the-point." And that's true. It annoys me when people use a hundred words to say something that could have been said in ten. But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words.

Sigh. Okay, I'm done ranting. Just don't get me started on No Fear Shakespeare.

Whew, what a thread. (Sighs.) OK, I'll bite.
[MENTION=23115]BadOctopus[/MENTION], I agree x100 (ok, more than that; not geometrically, but exponentiated) on the PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocab to make things easier for the masses to understand. To quote Lewis again (from Screwtape Proposes a Toast)

a boy who would be capable of tackling Aeschylus or Dante sits listening to his coeval's attempts to spell out 'A Cat Sat On A Mat'.

Now, don't get me wrong: I am not being elitist: rather, I think that MANY of the children who are busy attempting to spell out 'A Cat Sat On A Mat'
are being shortchanged by educators, and would be capable of achieving far more, and assimilating far more, than they are commonly given credit for.

"Another little portion of the human heritage has been quietly taken from them before they were old enough to understand."

An example of this was in my middle school (8th - 9th grade US) where the so-called "low achieving children" were exposed to -- not literal Shakespeare,
but a redacted one: while I consider this in some ways an abomination akin to colorizing of Gone with the Wind, still -- the kids ate it up, as much
as they could get: they *knew* Shakespeare was good stuff, and being told it was not "too good for *THEM*" was a tremendous inspiration.

Bad Octopus, I really liked your rant. You only spoke what I so often think concerning language and vocabulary. Also, I share the distaste for using a hundred words for what could be said in ten. I think a part of being a good writer is learning to get the most bang for your buck vocabulary-wise. Hence, I agree with, "But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words."

Touching on Lewis, [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION] and I have spoken of him before. No single writer has influenced my thinking more and while our writing styles are far apart, separated by culture and years, our ways of seeing, of thinking, are not. I connect with Lewis. If there were anyway possible (which I know there is not) to have a conversation with an author from the past, he'd be my first choice."

[MENTION=16382]Ene[/MENTION] -- while I agree I'd *love* to talk to Lewis, there is a small slew of others I'd include at just a small step below him:
G.K. Chesterton, Hilaire Belloc, P.G. Wodehouse...
and Dick Feynman and Newton and Einstein and Niels Bohr (the latter of whom, by way of returning to the point *and* acting as segue) said:

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think.


[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] haha...I have tried to explain why things have color to fourth graders, then I got sent to work with first graders and they have to be taught why things have color, too. It took me three years of actually being in a classroom to learn how to communicate with six year olds, but I'm pretty good at it now. The only thing I worry about is that I may now talk to adults like they're six year olds.

[MENTION=16382]Ene[/MENTION], [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] -- two points. First, as to the bolded. Isn't that the default communication mode of the INTJ anyway? :doh: :D
Second, communicating with fourth-graders, and moreso to six year olds -- that kind of requires you to break things down into bite-size, first principles chunks.
Which kind of ties together the quotes of Feynman, Lewis, and Bohr.
 
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