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[INTJ] Why do people hate INTJs?

Mal12345

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Is Jag traditional? I think not. He seems to challenge things too much - looks more NTJ to me. Still, what are your reasons?

Stereotypes, pure stereotypes.
 

Mal12345

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This entire thread is on the whole about the broad generalizations of INTJs.

It is also entirely irrational, and not the fun kind that brings new members to the forum.
 

RaptorWizard

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It is also entirely irrational, and not the fun kind that brings new members to the forum.

But INTJs are of the Rationalist temperament, thank you very much! And they're also under what I've seen the most widely searched MBTI type on the entire internet. So this thread should attract plenty of people. Look at its views count! Your post doesn't make sense.
 

Mal12345

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But INTJs are of the Rationalist temperament, thank you very much! And they're also under what I've seen the most widely searched MBTI type on the entire internet. So this thread should attract plenty of people. Look at its views count! Your post doesn't make sense.

What does views count have to do with attracting new members to the forum?
 

Seymour

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But INTJs are of the Rationalist temperament, thank you very much! And they're also under what I've seen the most widely searched MBTI type on the entire internet. So this thread should attract plenty of people. Look at its views count! Your post doesn't make sense.

Let's see, according to recent popularity (last 5 years or so) as reported by Google Trends:

For EN: ENFP > ENFJ = ENTP = ENTJ (although last 3 are neck and neck)

For IN: INTJ > INFJ > INFP > INTP

Which is interesting, since NJ is a rarer combination in general than NP.

(Note that in every case the introverted search popularity is greater than the extraverted equivalent)

Among IS, looks like it tends to be : ISTP = ISTJ > ISFJ > ISFP

Among ES: ESTP > ESFJ = ESTJ > ESFP

For some reason E vs I more mixed among Ss, among SP: ESTP > ISTP > ISFP = ESFP
among SJ: ISTJ > ISFJ > ESFJ = ESTJ

(Side note: MBTI and enneagram have ranked near even at points, but since 2007 MBTI has pulled ahead of Enneagram, which seems an opposite trend from typoc, where they have become more even over time, subjectively.)

Looking at autocomplete:

HATE INF: yields INFP followed by INFJ (in list of top hits)
HATE INT: yields nothing (type-wise)
HATE ISF: yields ISFJ followed by ISFP
HATE IST: yields nothing (type-wise)
HATE ENF: yields ENFP followed by ENFJ
HATE ENT: yields nothing (type-wise)
HATE EST: yields ESTJ followed by ESTP
HATE ESF: yields ESFJ followed by ESFP

In general... looks like NFPs are more popular for hate searches than NFJs.
Looks like NFs are more popular for hate searches then NTs.
Looks like SJs are more popular for hate searches than SPs.
Looks like SFJs are more popular for hate searches then SFPs.
 

Coriolis

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Let's see, according to recent popularity (last 5 years or so) as reported by Google Trends:
Where are you finding this information, and what is their measure of popularity?
 

Seymour

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Where are you finding this information, and what is their measure of popularity?

Via Google Trends.

Mostly fun for charting the popularity of one search vs. another over time. See the wikipedia entry for an explanation of what the metrics mean.

(P.S., one can waste a lot of time there.... kind of crack for an e5)

(P.P.S. One can also get results per country or state/province, which can be fun in a prurient kind of way... where is "MILF" most popular... or the more innocent where is "ice-cream" most popular?)
 

Jaguar

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Why are INTJs always the first to cry to mommy when someone bothers them? I guess it beats gnashing your teeth in frustration for hours, hatching diabolical plots you're not going to follow through on...

Knock it off.
 

RaptorWizard

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Oh boy, we just got a whole cluster-fuck of empirical data validating the massive popularity of INTJs on internet searches - I know you folks love that stuff!
 
W

WALMART

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Oh boy, we just got a whole cluster-fuck of empirical data validating the massive popularity of INTJs on internet searches - I know you folks love that stuff!

You would have to be an absolute moron to not understand the appeal of "INTJ's".

Jung himself stated Ni types were abstracted straight from psychological thrillers.

They are monoliths; 'one-sided demonstrations of nature'.
 

Amargith

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As requested and promised:

How far does simple courtesy go in fostering that rapport, or being part of the group? By that I mean the usual things like being on time, keeping promises, avoiding insulting language, looking people in the eye and hearing them out? None of this requires that we divulge information ourselves, though we often do when it makes sense. It seems when people learn that we mean what we say and we keep our commitments, that should go far in making us seem less threatening. Of course, they have to get to know us at least a little to develop this track record. A first impression might go more as you described.

That stuff works well in day to day routines, especially on the job. Which is why Te rules business life. The thing is that in order to trust someone at least a little, you need to get to know that person a little. That is especially true if that person is...somewhat... let's call it unconventional? True enough, your predictability due to your J mitigates that feeling at least somewhat, especially over time.

In a one on one conversation, having someone shield them so much, especially if it is a social engagement, instead of just an exchange of information to do you job, it ...well, it can be downright unproductive for the other party to have that interaction as it kind of defeats the purpose of socialising :shrug:

Amargith

Good posts, all around. You've been remarkably clear, here.

I really like this part:


One interesting thing I've noticed about myself as an INTJ is that the ways I help people are effectively invisible to them. They don't see the planning that kept things from going awry at dozens of different stages. It applies to both social and work situations, but it's a bit easier to describe with respect to work. I have occasionally found myself entering work situations that were remarkably discombobulated, or just barely recovering from discombobulation. Given a short time, I can see most everything that is going wrong.

What is wrong isn't that people don't like each other or don't trust each other or fail to affirm each other and provide social comfort. If anything, they trust each other too much, and assume that the overall work system that they've been using for the past decade works fine as is. Now, unlike your stereotypical immature INTJ, I don't just barge in and tell people to do things differently, and I know I need to gradually earn trust. Once I have that trust, I replace the broken processes (which were fine for the business environment 10 years ago, so they aren't broken so much as needing to be adapted) with working processes (whether pieces of code, actual practices, business procedures, workflows, design architectures, etc.). But even as I do all of this, I become agonizingly aware how no one around me is seeing any of these broken processes. And when I fix them, they take it for granted that it works this smoothly all the time. All the effort I put in is invisible, because I'm working on invisible things, the connections between "this" and "that", which I guess are invisible because people pay attention to "this" or "that, without even seeing the intrinsic connections between the two that, if one of them fails, the "this" and "that" both break. Granted, this is kind of an idealization of what I do, but the main takeaway here should be that what I do, what I see, is invisible to others. For more immature INTJs, they see the same things, wondering why everyone is so concerned with "being a team" and getting along, "putting out fires" instead of removing the fire hazards. How do you even TALK to people who can't see the obvious? Most anything we say is received with the same kind of primal fear you describe, as if we had said, "I see dead people."

In a more humorous vein, INTJs see the world like this:

We aren't trying to use you as cannon fodder, we're trying to save you from happily volunteering to be cannon fodder. :)

Amen to the bolded. And that is one of the reasons that I actually have no problems trusting INTJs and admire them greatly. I see the work, effort and sweat they put into their community and the ones they love. And yes, you're right, few people actually notice the stuff you guys do. This is partly due to the fact that you move in the shadows moreso than say ENTJs, to stay out of the spotlight, away from high risk positions - which inevitably happens when people do recognise your skills :D (my INTJ has cursed about this more than once and groomed someone to take over from him once he was done 'fixing' shit, to step into that limelight so he could step back again)

And partly due to the fact that you make it seem so effortlessly and easy. And then there is the part where you do this crap alone. You don't ask for help, you don't involve anyone else, you don't talk or brag about it...it's...truly like watching a ninja at work :D

Once you know how to spot them at work though...it's like watching an artist paint a masterpiece :wubbie:
 

Coriolis

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That stuff works well in day to day routines, especially on the job. Which is why Te rules business life. The thing is that in order to trust someone at least a little, you need to get to know that person a little. That is especially true if that person is...somewhat... let's call it unconventional? True enough, your predictability due to your J mitigates that feeling at least somewhat, especially over time.

In a one on one conversation, having someone shield them so much, especially if it is a social engagement, instead of just an exchange of information to do you job, it ...well, it can be downright unproductive for the other party to have that interaction as it kind of defeats the purpose of socialising :shrug:
What IS the purpose of socializing?? I suppose that is part of the problem. I don't really have a social mode. I approach nearly all new contacts in a sort of professional mode. If I continue to interact with someone, eventually (measured in weeks or months) it will become more friend-like, but this usually happens through one-on-one or very small group interaction. I don't really expect people to seek me out socially. In my circles of acquaintanceship, people know who I am and how to find me if they need something.

And partly due to the fact that you make it seem so effortlessly and easy. And then there is the part where

you do this crap alone. fewer distractions, so more efficient

You don't ask for help, it's rarely needed

you don't involve anyone else, that improves effectiveness and saves time

you don't talk or brag about it no need

...it's...truly like watching a ninja at work play
I like this.
 

uumlau

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As requested and promised:
Thanks for rejoining the thread! :)

And partly due to the fact that you make it seem so effortlessly and easy. And then there is the part where you do this crap alone. You don't ask for help, you don't involve anyone else, you don't talk or brag about it...it's...truly like watching a ninja at work :D
Or more like a Zen Master.

There are times when I read the Tao Te Ching, and I have to swear that he was a very spiritual INTJ:

Lao Tzu said:
9

Fill your bowl to the brim
and it will spill.
Keep sharpening your knife
and it will blunt.
Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.
Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner.

Do your work, then step back.
The only path to serenity.
One thing that is automatically true about INTJs: we do NOT care about people's approval. (Not that we cannot be swayed by it, but it generally doesn't motivate INTJs. More particularly, people's DISapproval does not dissuade INTJs.)

Once you know how to spot them at work though...it's like watching an artist paint a masterpiece :wubbie:
:hug:
 

uumlau

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What IS the purpose of socializing?? I suppose that is part of the problem. I don't really have a social mode. I approach nearly all new contacts in a sort of professional mode. If I continue to interact with someone, eventually (measured in weeks or months) it will become more friend-like, but this usually happens through one-on-one or very small group interaction. I don't really expect people to seek me out socially. In my circles of acquaintanceship, people know who I am and how to find me if they need something.
The purpose is to be proactive in developing human contacts. INTJs in general tend to only seek out a very few friends. The problem with this is that life is very changeable, friends change, friends move, friends develop other interests, and so on. It very much helps, in my opinion. to socialize in order to develop friendships that you never would have thought to develop. Think of it is Se terms: opportunities abound, but if you just stick with particular people, all of those opportunities are lost.
 

Coriolis

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The purpose is to be proactive in developing human contacts. INTJs in general tend to only seek out a very few friends. The problem with this is that life is very changeable, friends change, friends move, friends develop other interests, and so on. It very much helps, in my opinion. to socialize in order to develop friendships that you never would have thought to develop. Think of it is Se terms: opportunities abound, but if you just stick with particular people, all of those opportunities are lost.
I don't disagree in principle, and it's not that I don't have or want friends. I think I just prefer to meet the friends I do have through professional and pseudo-professional interactions - work, volunteer activities, music performance, even business relationships. I work together with someone, which automatically gives us one thing in common and a good reason for interacting, whether we become friends or not. Socializing for its own sake is not enjoyable, often trying, and brings me into contact with more quantities of people than quality.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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The purpose is to be proactive in developing human contacts. INTJs in general tend to only seek out a very few friends. The problem with this is that life is very changeable, friends change, friends move, friends develop other interests, and so on. It very much helps, in my opinion. to socialize in order to develop friendships that you never would have thought to develop. Think of it is Se terms: opportunities abound, but if you just stick with particular people, all of those opportunities are lost.

The differences between your two posts look like the difference between two SP doms having a different aux.
 

uumlau

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I don't disagree in principle, and it's not that I don't have or want friends. I think I just prefer to meet the friends I do have through professional and pseudo-professional interactions - work, volunteer activities, music performance, even business relationships. I work together with someone, which automatically gives us one thing in common and a good reason for interacting, whether we become friends or not. Socializing for its own sake is not enjoyable, often trying, and brings me into contact with more quantities of people than quality.

Let me put it this way ...

Sometimes "unknown unknowns" are far more positive than your "known knowns".
 
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