[INTJ] Why do people hate INTJs?

[Qre:us]

What just happened here?

 

[digesthisickness]

Feelings. As usual.

 

[baccheion]

People hate INTJs because they are annoying, controlling, tight-assed, rigid, think they are right even when they're not, or any other number of things. But they can get away with it all (or it won't matter) if they proactively show positive emotions. People love rolling around in the dynamic those two things together provide. They write songs about it. Don't sell yourself out!

 

[Qre:us]

Feelings. As usual.

Fe Fi Fo Fum......

 

[uumlau]

Feelings. As usual.

Yeah, it takes real personal strength to deal with feelings, especially dealing with them head-on and learning from them rather than avoiding them.

It doesn't matter whether one is a "thinker" or a "feeler": it's tough for everyone.

 

[digesthisickness]

Yeah, it takes real personal strength to deal with feelings, especially dealing with them head-on and learning from them rather than avoiding them.

It doesn't matter whether one is a "thinker" or a "feeler": it's tough for everyone.

Bingo. There are no experts once it gets personal to the individual.

 

[WhoCares]

Anyway.....back to the original question. Mainly because I can't be arsed reading the 11 pages I just missed and this thread has drifted into some other universe. But here's why I think a lot of people dismiss the INTJ as being arrogant, elitist etc....Note I am now using the royal 'we', make of that what you will.

We have a certain level of confidence and decidedness in our convictions and state them as being concrete. Because they are concrete in our minds. There's no need to seek validation, confirmation, or recruit believers into our convictions before we come right out and state them. This seems to flout social convention where one would politely put forward their thoughts 'for discussion' in order to recruit a certain amount of agreement and then be allowed to hold these convictions because other's find them agreeable also.

We value quality. Quality being whatever lines up with our internal compass of a job well done or executed immaculately. A lot of people value validation, a pat on the back for simply being or doing anything at all, regardless of how well executed. INTJs don't give out prizes for participation, we care about execution and quality. Others find this belittling or invalidating.

We have the unnerving ability to make eye contact without automatically accompanying that with a smile, wave, airkiss, hug etc. Eye contact does not make us nervous or uncomfortable, neither does it necessarily prompt any kind of interaction. We like to observe and make silent conclusions. I've heard that comes across as judgemental.

 

[anticlimatic]

In a similar way, I think that most extraverted functions do not have the patience to wait around for their introverted counterparts. Sort of like Amargith said. So to continue the thought...Ne doesn't have patience for Ni, Te doesn't have patience for Ti, Fe doesn't have patience for Fi, and Se doesn't have patience for Si.

This is a neat little novel observation. I like it, I'm inclined to agree.

Ha ha. I find this ironic and funny cause I look at beating a dead horse as a strength...in that it's getting to the depth of the subject.

Yes, this is how most INTJs spin their motives; identifying with some fundamental core process that only in the most ideal contexts would be noble. "Getting to the depth" of a subject might matter if you're researching cancer, but most of the time with the INTJs I know, it really just means "playing the same video game for 15 hours straight," or "binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fan fiction."

Maybe some examples of what you qualify as "not finished" looks like to you, would be more helpful in gaining perspective on this?

With INTJs, unless they can find a minion to do it for them, anything past the threshold if implementation tends to sit on the backburner forever. They will roughly 'strategize' the plan, gather all of the materials necessary to follow through with it…and just leave them in shopping bags, while they binge read every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction instead. It's like their motivation completely evaporates when it comes down to actually following through with a task, post-planning stage, and they move on to some other life-consuming bender. My INTJ room mate, for instance, had a truckload of firewood delivered to the property to dry out over the summer-- where it still sits, buried under the snow, because he never actually got around to cutting and stacking it in the garage-- which he couldn't do anyway, because the garage is a disaster; covered in panels that he stained for an end-table he was making, which simply need to be put together to be finished, which have been sitting there since august.

I think this is where I disagree. If we are talking about young INTJ's then I guess I can understand this ...but even then...it's irrelevant cause everyone projects when they're young.

Unless your saying that they do it more so than others in this young stage of life.

Or unless you're saying that they continue to do this into adulthood.

I would think that an NTJ would take someone saying "This happened because of you" as feedback. Consider it. And respond accordingly. (Now whether they think it's useful feedback or not that's another thing all on it's own. Is the latter maybe what you're talking about?)

I'm talking mostly about Fi; accountability for the impact we have on others, and how INTJs completely ignore it. They think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them-- so they feel like they should have a license to be douchebags (Te/Fi). Never mind that it irritates people. Never mind that it alienates them. Never mind that in the long run it causes them far more harm than good, because--

What do their self improvement ideas have to do with then?

--they don't actually see it as anything they need to improve upon. It's hard for anyone to see the forest through the trees, I admit, but INTJs are the worst at actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are, and where they actually need to improve. Instead, they fixate on things they think they need to improve on, which are often more unhealthy than healthy, and ignore anything else. It's that whole "my weaknesses are actually strengths you're just too stupid to understand" thing. No, they're weaknesses you're too ego-defensive about to be able to see for what they are, and therefore do anything about them. So instead they focus on "improving" seemingly random aspects of their projected "image" rather than their actual core being. Consequentially, an INTJs idea of "self improvement," to use a metaphor, is a bit like a prize fighter attempting to strength train for an upcoming bout….by binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction (is this joke getting old yet?).

Interesting. Do you have examples on how they're lazy as this Mr/Mrs Fuck person you speak of?

This is a Fi/Se thing, I think. If they don't feel like doing something, especially if there are negative sensory aspects about the task in question, they will not do it except in the most rare, pained, and grudgingly moments. They are unaffected by the thrill of comradery, so therefore can not ever be rallied to to provide on-the-spot aid when it's needed.

So who is this INTJ person in your life?

Incoming ad hominem...

Anyway.....back to the original question. Mainly because I can't be arsed reading the 11 pages I just missed and this thread has drifted into some other universe. But here's why I think a lot of people dismiss the INTJ as being arrogant, elitist etc....Note I am now using the royal 'we', make of that what you will.

We have a certain level of hubris in our convictions and state them as being non-debatable. We see no need to seek validation, confirmation, or recruit believers into our convictions before we come right out and state them. This completely ignores social convention where one would politely put forward their thoughts 'for discussion' in order to recruit a certain amount of agreement and then be allowed to hold these convictions because other's find them agreeable also.

We value expediency. Quality being completely subjective to us with no actual grounds in reality. A lot of people value external validation. INTJs don't give out prizes for participation, we care about ourselves. Others find this obviously belittling or invalidating.

We have the unnerving ability to awkwardly smile only with our mouths and not our eyes. Eye contact does not make us nervous or uncomfortable, neither does it necessarily prompt any kind of interaction. We like to observe and pass silent judgements. I've heard that comes across as judgmental.

Re-spun that for you to better accommodate objective reality. You're welcome.

 

[uumlau]

Yes, this is how most INTJs spin their motives; identifying with some fundamental core process that only in the most ideal contexts would be noble.

So how do most people "spin their motives," hmm? They pretend their douchebag actions are noble, do they not? This is a feature of humanity, not of type.

"Getting to the depth" of a subject might matter if you're researching cancer, but most of the time with the INTJs I know, it really just means "playing the same video game for 15 hours straight," or "binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fan fiction."

You don't get to say things like this and be taken seriously without answering chubber's question:

So who is this INTJ person in your life?

It isn't a stretch to assume that anyone complaining about a particular MBTI type in exquisite detail is not describing the type as a class at all, but is using the type as a proxy for real people in their lives. Now, unlike some people, I don't fault other posters for doing this - it's perfectly natural. But in order to have a solid discussion about type, one must needs separate the concrete instances of the behavior of a specific person from the type overall.

I have not found that type predicts behavior very well at all, in practice. It's why the MBTI tends to suck and be confusing for so many people. Applied correctly, type describes very specific features of people, and those features have tendencies w/r to personality, but really doesn't describe personality that well, overall. Personally, I use typology for communication. For example, if I know I'm dealing with an INTJ, I know I can wave my hands and make very general arguments very quickly to cover common ground, and then get more specific once we get to differences; with an INTP, I know that I don't get to wave my hands, I have to cover all of the common ground before I can get to the actual differences in our arguments.

With INTJs, unless they can find a minion to do it for them, anything past the threshold if implementation tends to sit on the backburner forever. They will roughly 'strategize' the plan, gather all of the materials necessary to follow through with it…and just leave them in shopping bags, while they binge read every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction instead. It's like their motivation completely evaporates when it comes down to actually following through with a task, post-planning stage, and they move on to some other life-consuming bender. My INTJ room mate, for instance, had a truckload of firewood delivered to the property to dry out over the summer-- where it still sits, buried under the snow, because he never actually got around to cutting and stacking it in the garage-- which he couldn't do anyway, because the garage is a disaster; covered in panels that he stained for an end-table he was making, which simply need to be put together to be finished, which have been sitting there since august.

Ahh, there we go. We're really talking about your room mate as a proxy for all INTJs. It's not a "for instance." (This is your spin.)

I've an INTP in my past who was, for the most part, a complete ass, who's managed to piss of just about everyone he works with. He's a great "instance" to explain the typical flaws of INTPs. But I know he doesn't represent all INTPs, and that most INTPs are way more classy than he is. He's a useful example especially because he is so extreme. Similarly, I am sure your room mate is a useful example of how INTJs can go wrong.

I'm talking mostly about Fi; accountability for the impact we have on others, and how INTJs completely ignore it. They think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them-- so they feel like they should have a license to be douchebags (Te/Fi). Never mind that it irritates people. Never mind that it alienates them. Never mind that in the long run it causes them far more harm than good, because--

--they don't actually see it as anything they need to improve upon. It's hard for anyone to see the forest through the trees, I admit, but INTJs are the worst at actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are, and where they actually need to improve.

Um, please cite examples of types of people who are good actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are. Functionally, no one really understands their own weaknesses. They can point at them, perhaps, if they're self aware, but weaknesses are necessarily our shadow selves, and like the Spanish Inquisition, they strike when least expected.

From my own experience as an INTJ, the problem isn't that we're somehow less aware than other types, but rather that roughly 99% of society is not INTJ, which means that 99% of the advice INTJs receive about what their weaknesses are, and how to improve upon them, is mostly bogus. Much of such advice is in Fe terms, or Si terms, and at best, that just teaches INTJs to put on a mask so that they don't upset others. But the mask sucks, because eventually the true self appears, and ends up repulsing others.

As a very concrete example, THIS is good advice for INTJs: The Four Agreements

Here are some examples of BAD ADVICE for INTJs (but that can be helpful for others):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTENR91f2J0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R8DAcP59fo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TU1P2_I0iE

Instead, they fixate on things they think they need to improve on, which are often more unhealthy than healthy, and ignore anything else.

This is human nature, not INTJ nature.

It's that whole "my weaknesses are actually strengths you're just too stupid to understand" thing.

Now we get to the nub of it.

The weaknesses actually are strengths. They just don't look like strengths to you at the moment, because they don't serve your ends and annoy you, to boot. That doesn't mean they aren't weaknesses, but rather that there are tradeoffs. I'm fairly good at math, physics, computers and so on. That's a strength. It also means I have a weakness: I can't use math, physics or computers as effective ice breakers with a pretty girl (or most anyone else, for that matter).

No, they're weaknesses you're too ego-defensive about to be able to see for what they are, and therefore do anything about them. So instead they focus on "improving" seemingly random aspects of their projected "image" rather than their actual core being. Consequentially, an INTJs idea of "self improvement," to use a metaphor, is a bit like a prize fighter attempting to strength train for an upcoming bout….by binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction (is this joke getting old yet?).

Ah, yes, the old "you're too ego-defensive to agree with me" schtick. If an INTJ disagrees with you, "ego-defensiveness" is the least likely reason for the disagreement.

In the case of personal flaws, well, when was the last time you pointed out another person's personal flaws (in your perspective) to them, and they replied, "Oh, my dear! You're right! I totally suck. I need to stop what I'm doing right now and conform to what you believe should be my ideal behaviors!" INTJ, ESFP, INTP, etc. - type doesn't matter, people don't work that way.

This is a Fi/Se thing, I think. If they don't feel like doing something, especially if there are negative sensory aspects about the task in question, they will not do it except in the most rare, pained, and grudgingly moments. They are unaffected by the thrill of comradery, so therefore can not ever be rallied to to provide on-the-spot aid when it's needed.

anticlimatic, my friend, you need a new room mate. Seriously.

 

[Zarathustra]

Wait, so are [MENTION=20035]anticlimatic[/MENTION] and [MENTION=16264]WhoCares[/MENTION] roommates?

Your rants are funny, well-written, and poignant, anticlimatic.

But it seems like the real problem is that you surround yourself with shitty people.

That, and, well, you sound a bit like a [hostility deleted] ESFJ complaining about that kid who breaks all the rules.

 

[WhoCares]

[MENTION=20035]anticlimatic[/MENTION] - It's hilarious you think objective reality exists. And show me any person who doesn't make silent judgements.

 

[Zarathustra]

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]

Please don't stop posting your thoughts in here. As you have seen, not a single INTJ has said anything bad about them, and many of us have said that they are awesome. I, personally, have been thinking about them since you wrote them.

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION]

Stop the projecting, dude.

You brought up some great points, and I was really looking forward to where you were steerimg the conversation, but then you went completely off the rails with some totally unnecessary tangent that had almost nothing to do with what Amargith said, and everything to do with your own issues (it was the same drum you beat all the time [which isn't necessarily a bad drum, but was completely unnecessary and unwarranted in the circumstance, which should tell you something]).

[MENTION=17495]CapLawyer[/MENTION]

I like you. But stop being such a [hostile word deleted] in this thread. Like Jaguar, you picked some innocuous sentence from Amar's post, and went off on a completely unrelated tangent that had barely anything to do with what she was saying. This is not the "Why I hate feelers" thread. It is a thread about why people tend to dislike INTJs, and Amar's posts are considered highly relevant, valuable and important by us INTJs. Stop allowing *your* issues to ruin it for the rest of us.

@ Amar: Once again, please continue to post your thoughts in this thread. Thanks

 

[baccheion]

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]

Please don't stop posting your thoughts in here. As you have seen, not a single INTJ has said anything bad about them, and many of us have said that they are awesome. I, personally, have been thinking about them since you wrote them.

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION]

Stop the projecting, dude.

You brought up some great points, and I was really looking forward to where you were steerimg the conversation, but then you went completely off the rails with some totally unnecessary tangent that had almost nothing to do with what Amargith said, and everything to do with your own issues (it was the same drum you beat all the time [which isn't necessarily a bad drum, but was completely unnecessary and unwarranted in the circumstance, which should tell you something]).

[MENTION=17495]CapLawyer[/MENTION]

I like you. But stop being such a [hostile word deleted] in this thread. Like Jaguar, you picked some innocuous sentence from Amar's post, and went off on a completely unrelated tangent that had barely anything to do with what she was saying. This is not the "Why I hate feelers" thread. It is a thread about why people tend to dislike INTJs, and Amar's posts are considered highly relevant, valuable and important by us INTJs. Stop allowing *your* issues to ruin it for the rest of us.

You like me, eh? WTF does that matter?

Not everyone hates you, not everyone hates you for the same reason, and not every suggestion for improvement is a good one. I say that to say the following: I just hope you really know when to listen, and when not to. I've asked for feedback of this sort, and sure enough the advice given (from a feeler perspective, rather than from an experienced person of the same type as me) left me up shit's creek. There was no need to do some of the stuff recommended, and the rest just made me look like a fool. Sometimes ideals are being projected (I guess anyone could do this), rather than what is actually going on in a situation and what should be done to remedy the issues that crop up.

I don't think there is any real mystery why INTJs are not liked, and Te users seem to universally benefit from reading books like How to Win Friends and Influence People and Peopleware.

Oh, and... for the love of God, don't apply what you learn to the wrong kinda person. Like, the soft feelery things that a feeler would respond to (and that you'll hear tons about) would probably make another thinker puke. Things that eventually get said like, "show them support, and give them lots of verbal affirmation that you like them, and be nice, etc, etc, etc."

You have a problem with perceivers generally because you try to impose your way, or try to start controlling everything, or are too rigid and let everything bother you. You have a problem with feelers because you seem cold and not human and can be a source of negativity. You have a problem with sensors, because you're not practical or "here and now" enough, and if you have a problem with extroverts, then it's because you're not outgoing enough. Usually you'll have more problems with the first two than the latter (for example, if you have a problem with an extrovert, then it's probably not the E, but the F or the J), and you can string together the letters to see how the problems stack up.

 

[Zarathustra]

You like me, eh? WTF does that matter?

Well, one, I kinda just felt like saying it so that you knew. I've read a good number of your posts over the last several months, and I think you're a pretty reasonable person and a good thinker. I also just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't saying what I was saying because of any dislike I have for you, but simply because of the unnecessarily hostile post you made toward Amargith.

Not everyone hates you, not everyone hates you for the same reason, and not every suggestion for improvement is a good one. I say that to say the following: I just hope you really know when to listen, and when not to. I've asked for feedback of this sort, and sure enough the advice given (from a feeler perspective, rather than from an experienced person of the same type as me) left me up shit's creek. There was no need to do some of the stuff recommended, and the rest just made me look like a fool. Sometimes ideals are being projected (I guess anyone could do this), rather than what is actually going on in a situation and what should be done to remedy the issues that crop up.

I don't think there is any real mystery why INTJs are not liked, and Te users seem to universally benefit from reading books like How to Win Friends and Influence People and Peopleware.

Oh, and... for the love of God, don't apply what you learn to the wrong kinda person. Like, the soft feelery things that a feeler would respond to (and that you'll hear tons about) would probably make another thinker puke. Things that eventually get said like, "show them support, and give them lots of verbal affirmation that you like them, and be nice, etc, etc, etc."

You have a problem with perceivers generally because you try to impose your way, or try to start controlling everything, or are too rigid and let everything bother you. You have a problem with feelers because you seem cold and not human and can be a source of negativity. You have a problem with sensors, because you're not practical or "here and now" enough, and if you have a problem with extroverts, then it's because you're not outgoing enough. Usually you'll have more problems with the first two than the latter (for example, if you have a problem with an extrovert, then it's probably not the E, but the F or the J), and you can string together the letters to see how the problems stack up.

This is all good advice, and sounds a lot more like the reasonable person I've grown accustomed to over the last few months.

Wrt the bolded: I appreciate that that's what your underlying intent was, and I assure you, I was already taking that into account.

That being said, Amargith rightfully has the trust of most every INTJ on here, and was not coming from a negative place in her posts.

Pretty much all INTJs on here know that she loves INTJs, knows us better than almost any other non-INTJ, and is just trying to help.

I actually appreciated what you said to some extent, cuz there's truth and value to your position (i.e., problematic feeler advice).

But there's no need to attack her, and if doing so is going to drive her contributions out of this thread, then I ask you to stop.

 

[Rasofy]

Why does every single thread have to become either a circle jerk or a mocking fest?

Will that ever end?

inb4 'look who's talking'

 

[anticlimatic]

So how do most people "spin their motives," hmm? They pretend their douchebag actions are noble, do they not? This is a feature of humanity, not of type.

Most people concentrate on their actual strengths, and at worst simply ignore or avoid their weaknesses. Spinning them into strengths is predominantly done by INTJs, in my experience.

I have not found that type predicts behavior very well at all, in practice.

Te when it suits you, Fi when it doesn't. The ol' battle between "there is only one way" and "we are all special snowflakes," Another INTJ staple.

It isn't a stretch to assume that anyone complaining about a particular MBTI type in exquisite detail is not describing the type as a class at all, but is using the type as a proxy for real people in their lives.

Ahh, there we go. We're really talking about your room mate as a proxy for all INTJs. It's not a "for instance." (This is your spin.)

Carpe Adhominem! Bombs away!! (actually it was a 'for instance,' I have about a dozen INTJs whose behavior I've collated into my expressed opinion)

From my own experience as an INTJ, the problem isn't that we're somehow less aware than other types, but rather that roughly 99% of society is not INTJ, which means that 99% of the advice INTJs receive about what their weaknesses are, and how to improve upon them, is mostly bogus. Much of such advice is in Fe terms, or Si terms, and at best, that just teaches INTJs to put on a mask so that they don't upset others. But the mask sucks, because eventually the true self appears, and ends up repulsing others.

As a very concrete example, THIS is good advice for INTJs: The Four Agreements

Here are some examples of BAD ADVICE for INTJs (but that can be helpful for others):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTENR91f2J0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R8DAcP59fo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TU1P2_I0iE

While not the most adept at validating their Ni hunches, they can validate the shit out of their desire to keep their heads in the sand, I'll give y'all that.

Now we get to the nub of it.

The weaknesses actually are strengths. They just don't look like strengths to you at the moment, because they don't serve your ends and annoy you, to boot. That doesn't mean they aren't weaknesses, but rather that there are tradeoffs.

Case in point.

Ah, yes, the old "you're too ego-defensive to agree with me" schtick. If an INTJ disagrees with you, "ego-defensiveness" is the least likely reason for the disagreement.

Depends on whether or not it's Te or Fi that's disagreeing. I was speaking to the Fi variety.

anticlimatic, my friend, you need a new room mate. Seriously.

Wouldn't hurt, but those attributes were primarily drawn from other INTJs, not him.

[MENTION=20035]anticlimatic[/MENTION] - It's hilarious you think objective reality exists.

Spoken like a true INTJ!

 

[highlander]

@ Amar: Once again, please continue to post your thoughts in this thread. Thanks

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]

Yes please

 

[Zarathustra]

What the fuck happened to my post (#413) where I mentioned [MENTION=20035]anticlimatic[/MENTION]?

 

[Evo]

This is a neat little novel observation. I like it, I'm inclined to agree.

Good. I'm glad that I was able to communicate that effectively. I also wont take all the credit for it, as it was mostly Amargith's post that made me want to finish out the thought more.

( [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] just a thank you girly :hi: you don't have to respond to this though, don't worryz. )

Yes, this is how most INTJs spin their motives; identifying with some fundamental core process that only in the most ideal contexts would be noble. "Getting to the depth" of a subject might matter if you're researching cancer, but most of the time with the INTJs I know, it really just means "playing the same video game for 15 hours straight," or "binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fan fiction."

Hmm...I tend to "research" things I like. I don't tend to really enjoy things if they don't have a lot of depth or if they're not a challenge though. So I would think other NTJ's would like a challenge as well. Hmm...I guess it could be like saying instead of researching cancer, I am watching movie, after movie, after movie....

Why is this a fault though? Hmm...I think I'm doing the thing where I'm getting caught up with the trees...(this is me asking for help/feedback)

If someone enjoys it and it's not harming others, is it bad or a flaw? Or are you saying these ppl complain about having no friends but do nothing about that cause they're too caught up with Dragon Ball Z? Cause then I could see...it's a flaw and their own fault.

I really...really...enjoy thinking about one particular subject for quite a while though...making sure I have figured out every tiny aspect of it. Comparing contexts...etc... I think Si does the same thing actually. It's like wanting to be so thorough in a subject so that you see all sides.

With INTJs, unless they can find a minion to do it for them, anything past the threshold if implementation tends to sit on the backburner forever. They will roughly 'strategize' the plan, gather all of the materials necessary to follow through with it…and just leave them in shopping bags, while they binge read every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction instead. It's like their motivation completely evaporates when it comes down to actually following through with a task, post-planning stage, and they move on to some other life-consuming bender. My INTJ room mate, for instance, had a truckload of firewood delivered to the property to dry out over the summer-- where it still sits, buried under the snow, because he never actually got around to cutting and stacking it in the garage-- which he couldn't do anyway, because the garage is a disaster; covered in panels that he stained for an end-table he was making, which simply need to be put together to be finished, which have been sitting there since august.

Baahhaha as soon as I read the word implementation I understood. Only cause it's where the fun stops for me...However...that does not mean that I don't do my best on the implementation despite how tedious it may seem. And I guess I usually ask a friend to help me at that point if I'm feeling really demotivated. Which you may be considering them the minions?

(btws I know you're not directing this at me or anything like that, I just have to bring it down to the "if this was me" context so that I can fully grasp the stuffs you're talking about I hope you don't mind )

I'm talking mostly about Fi; accountability for the impact we have on others, and how INTJs completely ignore it. They think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them-- so they feel like they should have a license to be douchebags (Te/Fi). Never mind that it irritates people. Never mind that it alienates them. Never mind that in the long run it causes them far more harm than good, because--

This is actually pretty good, the part in bold I mean. I used to have this problem more...and still do. It's taken me some time to be able to catch myself in the act of assuming people think like I do. I think all types still do that to some degree...but MBTI especially has helped me understand this more actually.

And I think that you have kinda pinpointed the answer to the OP. I think it's been said many times in this thread...but the thought process was not explained in this way.

--they don't actually see it as anything they need to improve upon. It's hard for anyone to see the forest through the trees, I admit, but INTJs are the worst at actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are, and where they actually need to improve. Instead, they fixate on things they think they need to improve on, which are often more unhealthy than healthy, and ignore anything else. It's that whole "my weaknesses are actually strengths you're just too stupid to understand" thing. No, they're weaknesses you're too ego-defensive about to be able to see for what they are, and therefore do anything about them. So instead they focus on "improving" seemingly random aspects of their projected "image" rather than their actual core being. Consequentially, an INTJs idea of "self improvement," to use a metaphor, is a bit like a prize fighter attempting to strength train for an upcoming bout….by binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction (is this joke getting old yet?).

This is a Fi/Se thing, I think. If they don't feel like doing something, especially if there are negative sensory aspects about the task in question, they will not do it except in the most rare, pained, and grudgingly moments. They are unaffected by the thrill of comradery, so therefore can not ever be rallied to to provide on-the-spot aid when it's needed.

This part I don't relate to at all...is this inferior Se or something?? I think it's cause I'm an extravert so I can extract some use/fun out of my interactions.

Incoming ad hominem...

Re-spun that for you to better accommodate objective reality. You're welcome.

You're funny.

I liked Who Cares post though. See I think I see that as healthy Fi...Like it's saying "This is how we are, accept us as how we are or don't. It's up to you." Maybe it should be rephrased as

I like it only cause I need to be more true to myself probably....(inferior Fi)

Maybe you're saying that INTJ's don't give in once and a while, an let others have their way?

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Anyways on the silent judgment part... I am mostly always going to say that Ti and Fi pass waaaaaaaay more "silent" judgments...They keep them in and you find out 2 years later they hated that you did such and such...wtf. Why didn't you just tell me Ji?

lol...This goes back to preferences again. All 4 judgment functions pass judgments all the time.

From my pov (using the 2 year example above) we could have changed the problem if Ji just addressed it 2 years ago. And that is assuming that everyone wants that kinda feedback, yes.

I don't aim to piss ppl off...I aim to correct the problem...Others don't aim to do this correction though....and that is the part I don't get....I would call that ego-protecting on their part cause they don't want to hear what problem they're causing. If there is a problem...I want to hear about it, so then we can try to fix it...I don't want it to get swept under the rug. And I also want to be able to say...at least we tried our best.

At least Je gets it out in the air. Ji seems to act like it doesn't matter, when it really does matter...Also Je can take what they give...Ji doesn't want the problem to be addressed in the first place.

But it's all what you prefer I guess. And taking that into account is something that people in general don't do, no matter what type. But are you saying INTJ's are one of the worst types that don't?

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Anyways thanks for taking the time to give me examples. I really enjoyed this

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

Do INTJs enjoy being hated?