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Thread: Why do people hate INTJs?

  1. #951
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sometimes I do this, too. I usually have my own ideas about how best to do something. If I am working with others and someone else does it differently, I have learned to ask questions like this before trying to insist on my way. Often, the other person has a very good reason for doing it their way. Plus if I still think my way is better, I understand now what their reasoning is, and can take their concerns and motivations into account in asking for a change.
    It's because of attitudinal positioning, and a component of my shorthand, "Je is always right". If you thought the coffee pot was in the correct location, you would not ask for clarification on why it is there. So, your question is not really a question at all. It's a judgement concealed in a question, and non-Je types learn this very quickly. The Je need to control and manage the outer environment in this way can be very stressful to those around them.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #952
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    No matter how accurate and bright they wish they could be, their reasoning is always informed at bottom by Fi, which forever disqualifies them from sound logic. They put in the effort, I'll give them that...but it just makes the cancerous logic all the more aggressive, which is why they're so typically cast as the villain. Must be tough.
    Fi possesses a logic you are not wired to comprehend. It is as sound and rational as Ti. It takes Fi types longer in life (generally) to be able to express that incisive precision with elegance, but that does not mean it is not there.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  3. #953
    Seal Down Array Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's because of attitudinal positioning, and a component of my shorthand, "Je is always right". If you thought the coffee pot was in the correct location, you would not ask for clarification on why it is there. So, your question is not really a question at all. It's a judgement concealed in a question, and non-Je types learn this very quickly. The Je need to control and manage the outer environment in this way can be very stressful to those around them.
    I don't that's quite fair, because not everyone asks because they think it's wrong. There are a number of people who ask, simply because they don't understadnd, and I do not believe it is found solidly within any particular type.

    In the case of those who do this though, you are correct. Though I wouldn't exactly call it stressful, but annoying. Saying it is stressful makes it sound like they have some sort of latent problem.
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  4. #954
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's because of attitudinal positioning, and a component of my shorthand, "Je is always right". If you thought the coffee pot was in the correct location, you would not ask for clarification on why it is there. So, your question is not really a question at all. It's a judgement concealed in a question, and non-Je types learn this very quickly. The Je need to control and manage the outer environment in this way can be very stressful to those around them.
    Actually, it is a tentative judgment deferred in favor of a question. II ask questions like these because I know my judgment may not be right, or best, or the only good way to do it. Otherwise I would indeed simply ask them to move the coffee pot. And sometimes I do ask, even if I think the coffee pot is in the right place. I will do this if I fully expected the person to put it in the wrong place, perhaps because they always do. I will want to understand what led them to a different decision than I expected. In any case, it's always best simply to answer the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    So this is just hate speech. Blanket statements and all that.
    Not to worry, Hard. If there is one thread on the forum where such sentiments should be allowed, this is it. After all, it is the "why do people hate INTJs" thread. Hate is a very strong emotion, which needn't have any basis in reality, or rationality. People can accuse us of all manner of vice and offense here with no burden of proof whatsoever. Let them vent. I am actually amazed at how measured, reasonable, and thoughtful so many of the posts in this thread are. Many provide well-explained and useful feedback for us. We can hardly complain when every so often, one does not.
    In science, when human behavior enters the equation, things go nonlinear. That's why Physics is easy and Sociology is hard. -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

  5. #955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I don't that's quite fair, because not everyone asks because they think it's wrong. There are a number of people who ask, simply because they don't understadnd, and I do not believe it is found solidly within any particular type.

    In the case of those who do this though, you are correct. Though I wouldn't exactly call it stressful, but annoying. Saying it is stressful makes it sound like they have some sort of latent problem.
    Exactly. Oftentimes, as a Je dom, I ask such questions, because I want to figure out if and how I may need to adapt my original plan. Basically, I can't read another person's mind so why not ask for clarification instead of potentially screwing up someone else's process by assuming. Once you get to the root of people's priorities, values, and motivations, it's just business... rarely strictly about control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protege View Post
    Exactly. Oftentimes, as a Je dom, I ask such questions, because I want to figure out if and how I may need to adapt my original plan. Basically, I can't read another person's mind so why not ask for clarification instead of potentially screwing up someone else's process by assuming. Once you get to the root of people's priorities, values, and motivations, it's just business... rarely strictly about control.
    Welllll, I am a 1w2 so in my case it does tend to be about control much of the time (which one of the main reasons I try to back off my tendancy to correct people impulsely). Essentially, if correcting someone can't be done directly, I won't at all unless doing the passive (this) route is justified, and it rarely is. Regardless, I know I am an extreme case and few are like me in this regard. Ironically I had to learn that people who do this DON'T do it the way I do. So I sort of had to learn in the same way (for opposite reasons) that those who don't do this at all do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    II ask questions like these because I know my judgment may not be right, or best, or the only good way to do it. Otherwise I would indeed simply ask them to move the coffee pot.
    Exactly. I don't disagree with PB entirely but there have been times I may not have the ideal place for the coffee pot and it's just that, not a judgement. I do tend to frame it differently with my ENFJ or ENFP's for example - do you think that may be a better place for the coffee pot? Is that why you put it there? That's not a natural thing for me, it's something I had to learn.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protege View Post
    Exactly. Oftentimes, as a Je dom, I ask such questions, because I want to figure out if and how I may need to adapt my original plan. Basically, I can't read another person's mind so why not ask for clarification instead of potentially screwing up someone else's process by assuming. Once you get to the root of people's priorities, values, and motivations, it's just business... rarely strictly about control.
    One of my training officers in the military used to ask questions like this, and given the context, nearly everyone assumed it was a command. I used to answer the question with an explanation, but also offer to change things if he wanted. "I put the recruiting flyers here because of X, Y, and Z. Do you want me to move them, sir?" The answer was always, "No, no - fine where they are." I was one of the few on good terms with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Exactly. I don't disagree with PB entirely but there have been times I may not have the ideal place for the coffee pot and it's just that, not a judgement. I do tend to frame it differently with my ENFJ or ENFP's for example - do you think that may be a better place for the coffee pot? Is that why you put it there? That's not a natural thing for me, it's something I had to learn.
    You're not kidding. I would feel like I was playing Aunt Polly if I started saying things like that.
    In science, when human behavior enters the equation, things go nonlinear. That's why Physics is easy and Sociology is hard. -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
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  9. #959
    Seal Down Array Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Exactly. I don't disagree with PB entirely but there have been times I may not have the ideal place for the coffee pot and it's just that, not a judgement. I do tend to frame it differently with my ENFJ or ENFP's for example - do you think that may be a better place for the coffee pot? Is that why you put it there? That's not a natural thing for me, it's something I had to learn.
    This is starting to be a bit of a tangent, but it's too interesting not to ask.

    I'm curious. Have you ever found those who are ok with you reverting back to a more natural tendancy after some time? I ask because sometimes I can adjust to someones way of doing things after I learn through experience that they mean no harm. If I an get past that sort of thing with a person I can usually get super close with them. Sometimes though, that can't happen and an altered behavior is an absolute must. Either way I always wondered on the other end if you notice patterns with being able to let the new behavior drop, not include it in the first place for everyone? Or is it totally unpredictable and you have to go by word of mouth?


    It's also very interesting that you can take on a behavior like this so readily. It's very difficult for me to take on a unnatural behavior unless my environment absolutely demands it (and even then it's sometimes impossible). I don't think it'd be possible for me to be close with anyone that would require to twist like that all the time.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  10. #960
    Senior Member Array Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Why do you find "feels" more interesting than other aspects of us as people?
    Because I believe that they are the most sensitive, subtle translators of energy vibration, and that behind what anyone does, is the desire to feel good.
    Why anything -- to feel good.
    Or the belief that in its attainment, pursuance, creation, one will feel good. Why logic and reason? Because (I hear, for some people) it makes sense. And why make sense? In the end, it feels good. Why make the world a better place? It feels good. Why holographic TV's, artificial gills, wireless electricity? For some, they are neat and exciting feel-goods.

    So the intj's I've known, who don't suppress their feeling indicators, identify more authentically what they specifically want. They find meaning and passion. And when they combine this with their intelligence and vision, what they do and create seems to be a lot more interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Also, what do you mean by pigeonholing?
    Oh, I think you know.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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