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  1. #901
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    Why are we arguing over this? Kind of dumb thing to argue about...Don't you think? I feel like we're bickering just for the sake of bickering. Who cares??

    Again, who cares? I'm not arguing about this anymore because we've clearly lost sight of the argument and we're falling into pointless bickering. This argument could literally go on forever..
    No, actually. Now that your definitions and assumptions have been spelled out, your meaning is clear and there is nothing more to argue about. Had you written initially, "INTJs often appear to be passive because when we take action, it is usually without aggression and also behind the scenes", I would have agreed immediately. Moreover, I find that many if not most "arguments" that occur here are based on similar misunderstandings, where someone is using non-standard definitions, making unstated assumptions, or hasn't been clear enough in their initial statement.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #902
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    No, actually. Now that your definitions and assumptions have been spelled out, your meaning is clear and there is nothing more to argue about. Had you written initially, "INTJs often appear to be passive because when we take action, it is usually without aggression and also behind the scenes", I would have agreed immediately. Moreover, I find that many if not most "arguments" that occur here are based on similar misunderstandings, where someone is using non-standard definitions, making unstated assumptions, or hasn't been clear enough in their initial statement.
    Gee. I wonder why people wouldn't like INTJs? Could it be their obsessive tendency to drag out arguments? Or their inability to let something go when someone else actually insists upon it?

    I said I didn't want to discuss it anymore.

    Let it go. The world is not going to end because you didn't win an argument or get the last word in. Sheesh.

    This is something I've learned to do over time, because you know what? No one gives a sht in the end, except you. Which is kind of sad.

    The people on this board insist upon claiming that all INTJs are like them. Well sorry...but we're all different people, including me. A personality type is not set in stone, all it shows is that people share similar approaches to thinking and perceiving the world around them.

  3. #903
    Clean Slate CitizenErased's Avatar
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    Well, my dad is an INTJ and I'm an INTP,and I find myself feelinglike this all the time:

    9104c942bd3af04a5a193419f36ea5c0.jpg

    I think this sums it all up.

    ... But if not, there's no way to win them, mostly because EVERYTHING is a contest and not winning means dishonor, which leads to ALWAYS being prepared to win.
    MBTI: INTP (though I'm PINT-sized) * Ti = Ne > Fi > Ni > Si > Te = Se >>> Fe
    Enneagram: 5w4 - 4w5 - 1w9 sp/sx * 5 > 4 > 1 > 8 > 3 > 6 > 7 > 9 > 2
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    Temperament: Melancholic/Choleric
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    Oldham's: Idiosyncratic/Solitary

    Omnis res est se ipsa singularis et per nihil aliud

  4. #904
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    ... But if not, there's no way to win them, mostly because EVERYTHING is a contest and not winning means dishonor, which leads to ALWAYS being prepared to win.
    Arguing is a competition for some INTJs...I used to think this way myself. If I didn't win the argument that it was like losing face. Now I couldn't care less, if anything I prefer to avoid arguments.

  5. #905
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    Arguing is a competition for some INTJs...I used to think this way myself. If I didn't win the argument that it was like losing face. Now I couldn't care less, if anything I prefer to avoid arguments.
    I prefer to learn from arguments, either about the topic, or about more effective ways to get my point across. It is rather frustrating to go through an argument only to realize you and the other person are in general agreement after all. I would like a dollar for every time an argument has ended in someone basically saying, "if you had explained it this way the first time . . . ".
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #906
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    I prefer to learn from arguments, either about the topic, or about more effective ways to get my point across. It is rather frustrating to go through an argument only to realize you and the other person are in general agreement after all. I would like a dollar for every time an argument has ended in someone basically saying, "if you had explained it this way the first time . . . ".
    Sometimes people come to the same point through different perspectives, it's frustrating when you realize that you're arguing for no reason. Sometimes I find this happens a lot with INFJs and INTPs.

    Some people get a kick out of confrontation too, my dad is like that. He's an ESTJ. If he's not arguing your point (no matter how right or wrong he is), then it isn't a discussion. I don't he can talk without arguing.

  7. #907
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think i've said this before, but e5s can be annoying, especially when bringing so many carefully curated assumptions to the table, many reworked and somewhat incongruous with general ones.

    i think each type can make assumptions or enact their preferences for how interactions should go, which can be frustrating as well.

    then, once an argument situation is set up, finding some balance and agreement on rules and values is still needed to not create havoc. i will say that i enjoy more of an expressive side even in argumentative contexts. i find, in general, it's really difficult to find situations where there is a quality of mutual truth-seeking that can go on without some space for expression too. to think that at any point, it's all just verification from here, isn't very realistic when engaging with the real world, unless you are doing it as an experiment more than as a decisive act of defining the truth that sometimes it seems like it is purported to be. in these situations, it really doesn't seem cooperative or constructive for Fe types, bc noticing and discovering more about the underlying perspectives and needs and analyzing those sometimes seems better to me than counting on fully objectified assumptions.

  8. #908
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    Sometimes people come to the same point through different perspectives, it's frustrating when you realize that you're arguing for no reason. Sometimes I find this happens a lot with INFJs and INTPs.

    Some people get a kick out of confrontation too, my dad is like that. He's an ESTJ. If he's not arguing your point (no matter how right or wrong he is), then it isn't a discussion. I don't he can talk without arguing.
    I have seen the highlighted often enough that one of the things I try to learn in discussions is how to identify sooner that the other person and I really agree, or how to present my side in such a way that our agreement is more readily apparent to the other person, just so we don't waste time and effort just arguing.

    I don't enjoy confrontation for its own sake, but won't shy away from it if I think it is necessary or useful. The closest I come to arguing for its own sake is if I am in a discussion with someone who is being really obnoxious in some way and needs to be taken down a peg or two.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #909
    Member her-space-holiday's Avatar
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    I love INTJs!

    I was raised by two- though my mom does seem like she could be on the borderline between F and T.

    Literally all the INTJs I run into I like. They're definitely cooler and more detached at first - I think I scare(or bore, hard to say with them) them a little upon first impression, because I usually come off as very upbeat and mannerly until I move past pleasantries.

    I get along with them super well, we share the same sort of humor and penchant for good, intellectual, stoned conversation. They seem to be simultaneously perplexed and satisfied with not being able to figure me out easily.

    The only thing I dislike is that their negativity is...very negative. I mean, I'm cynical as all fuck, and I like to think of myself as a realist - but I look for the good in things wherever I can - I have to or else I would be smothered by my own depression. IME, the intjs I know either scoff at me or find it kind of charming, usually both.

    By far one of my favorite types. ENTPs might beat them, but only marginally.

  10. #910
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    What a timely bump. Thank you new person, for inadvertently illustrating that the concept of hatred knows NO typological bounds.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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