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  1. #881
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Mostly, I was addressing this quote...



    Extremely passive people? None of them I know are. Coriolis is a 5, does she seem extremely passive to you? I place more emphasis on enneagram for the most part, because it helps polish and refine MBTI type. I just don't see any of them as extremely passive, regardless of enneagram.
    (Rolls wine on tongue, oddly savoring the tannins, then nods.) You've got a point there.
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  2. #882
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    Extremely passive people? None of them I know are. Coriolis is a 5, does she seem extremely passive to you? I place more emphasis on enneagram for the most part, because it helps polish and refine MBTI type. I just don't see any of them as extremely passive, regardless of enneagram.
    I don't know who this is, so I can't really answer your question. Still new here and I haven't had a great deal of time to interact with said poster.

    What you're speaking of consists of human emotions. We all feel them. The point is whether or not we act on them. This is what turns a passive person into an active person. INTJs aren't particularly actively aggressive. What I'm trying to say is that we appear as very passive people. When you actually get to know us, we have a lot of pathos and passion hidden inside. I will not call it aggression because I don't believe that's what it is. Emotion and aggression are not the same thing.

    Most people would say that ESTJs, ESFJs or ESFPs are aggressive, that is only because they act on their feelings more so than other types. That doesn't mean that they "feel" more emotions than anyone else.

    I am one and I'm in no way passive.
    Well I am for the most part.

    Neither are any of the other INTJ's or ISTJ's that I've met.
    Nice to meet you.

    They may act uninterested or like they aren't paying attention. Likely because they're uninterested and no longer paying attention.
    I am a fairly passive person regardless of whether or not I'm paying attention. I can't stand militant people. (Grew up in the northeast and I can't stand passive aggressive people.)

    The only time I feel the need to become passionate about a subject is when I see people spreading a false truth. Such as the stereotypes people perpetuate about INTJs. Including the INTJs themselves. Maybe the get some sort of gratification or a sense of belonging out of it, but I am really sick and tired of hearing it.

    We're not all alike. Some of us are aggressive, some of us are passive. In real life, we're fairly innocuous people and whether you want to agree with this or not, we come off as passive and calm to others.

    When I was a child my teacher used to stick me next to the hyperactive kids because she said I had a calming effect on them. I've had many people tell me that I have a placid composure.

    For the record, I've taken the Myers briggs test about 20 times and every time I take it it comes out INTJ.

    I think unhealthy INTJs can be much more aggressive than usual because they don't know how to handle their emotions or articulate their thoughts. In many ways, INTJs have to re learn how to communicate with people again once they reach their young adult years.

  3. #883
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    (I'd consider the INTJ type 5 to be something between a Dirac Delta function, and a Venus Flytrap. A mortal danger only to the unwary who come within their blast radius...)
    Interesting point, I'm inclined to agree. I've taken the enneagram test several times and it always comes out as 5w4.

    Perhaps the 8s are much more aggressive than the 5s and 6s.

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    You are confusing being private with being passive. INTJs activeness is seen in our actions much moreso than in our words.
    I'm not confused, this is my personal viewpoint. I don't see INTJs as more aggressive than anyone else in society, if anything they are one of the least aggressive types. I think only the FPs trail behind us. (Almost annoyingly passive).

    What actions would this consist of?

    A healthy INTJ would not see the point in arguing with aggression because it is off putting. Now I realize that there are probably more unhealthy INTJs out there than healthy INTJs...but that doesn't mean that this is an "INTJ trait."

  5. #885
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    Interesting point, I'm inclined to agree. I've taken the enneagram test several times and it always comes out as 5w4.

    Perhaps the 8s are much more aggressive than the 5s and 6s.
    That's something of an understatement. 8s are the most aggressive type, almost by definition. Other types are almost completely passive, such as 4s and 9s, and the types 9, 4 and 5 comprise the "withdrawn" types. Type 5s, as grey_beard notes, are "aggressive" only within their area(s) of mastery, e.g., if you make a stupid comment about Britney Spears, a type 5 will at most yawn, but make a stupid comment about the Beatles and a type 5 who has mastered the entire Beatles catalog and history will harangue you with enough detail that you will never make such a comment around them again. Even type 9s will become abruptly aggressive if you push them too far and they have nowhere to retreat.

    In contrast, 3, 7 and 8 are the "aggressive" types, with type 8 the most obviously so. The other triad (in this set of triads) is 1, 2 and 6, which is "social" in its expression.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

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  6. #886
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    That's something of an understatement. 8s are the most aggressive type, almost by definition. Other types are almost completely passive, such as 4s and 9s, and the types 9, 4 and 5 comprise the "withdrawn" types. Type 5s, as grey_beard notes, are "aggressive" only within their area(s) of mastery, e.g., if you make a stupid comment about Britney Spears, a type 5 will at most yawn, but make a stupid comment about the Beatles and a type 5 who has mastered the entire Beatles catalog and history will harangue you with enough detail that you will never make such a comment around them again. Even type 9s will become abruptly aggressive if you push them too far and they have nowhere to retreat.
    Lol I can see this, especially with INTJs or INFPs.

    When I was younger I could become very passionate about the arts, but I've learned to let go of some of that aggression. If you don't like the same things I do, then there's nothing I can do about it.

    The Beatles for me is classical music. I find it extremely depressing when people criticize it because a lot of it is public domain and under appreciated.

    In contrast, 3, 7 and 8 are the "aggressive" types, with type 8 the most obviously so. The other triad (in this set of triads) is 1, 2 and 6, which is "social" in its expression.
    Interesting. I'm completely new to this whole enneagram thing, I tried to download a book on Amazon, but the software crashed in the middle. Maybe I'll check out the library. Any suggestions?

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    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix5 View Post
    Lol I can see this, especially with INTJs or INFPs.

    When I was younger I could become very passionate about the arts, but I've learned to let go of some of that aggression. If you don't like the same things I do, then there's nothing I can do about it.

    The Beatles for me is classical music. I find it extremely depressing when people criticize it because a lot of it is public domain and under appreciated.



    Interesting. I'm completely new to this whole enneagram thing, I tried to download a book on Amazon, but the software crashed in the middle. Maybe I'll check out the library. Any suggestions?
    The Riso-Hudson book is the classic: Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery: Don Richard Riso, Russ Hudson: 0046442798679: Amazon.com: Books

    It's interesting in part because the essentially map the types to the DSM - not explicitly, but if you look at the material, it covers many layers of psychological development and trauma.

    Also very useful for me was Helen Palmer's book: The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others In Your Life: Helen Palmer: 9780062506832: Amazon.com: Books

    The main thing I liked about this book is that its more anecdotal style helped me figure out the underlying core of Enneagram, namely that it is about weaknesses, about coping mechanisms. The "personalities" of the types are the coping mechanisms by which people of the type tend to deal with their key psychological weakness. If you figure out the weakness or coping mechanism, you know your Enneagram type, even if the personality doesn't match exactly. (The personality descriptions get a lot of "cruft" that combine MBTI personality types together and hide the fact that other MBTI types could have that Enneagram type. For instance, type 5 reads like a combination of INTJ and INTP, but hides the fact that INFP or ISTJ are also quite likely, and the type 9 descriptions read like INFP/ISFP/ISFJ emo crap that would seem to indicate that an INTJ could never possibly be a 9 - but 9 is the only type that makes sense to me.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

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  8. #888
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The Riso-Hudson book is the classic: Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery: Don Richard Riso, Russ Hudson: 0046442798679: Amazon.com: Books

    It's interesting in part because the essentially map the types to the DSM - not explicitly, but if you look at the material, it covers many layers of psychological development and trauma.

    Also very useful for me was Helen Palmer's book: The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others In Your Life: Helen Palmer: 9780062506832: Amazon.com: Books

    The main thing I liked about this book is that its more anecdotal style helped me figure out the underlying core of Enneagram, namely that it is about weaknesses, about coping mechanisms. The "personalities" of the types are the coping mechanisms by which people of the type tend to deal with their key psychological weakness. If you figure out the weakness or coping mechanism, you know your Enneagram type, even if the personality doesn't match exactly. (The personality descriptions get a lot of "cruft" that combine MBTI personality types together and hide the fact that other MBTI types could have that Enneagram type. For instance, type 5 reads like a combination of INTJ and INTP, but hides the fact that INFP or ISTJ are also quite likely, and the type 9 descriptions read like INFP/ISFP/ISFJ emo crap that would seem to indicate that an INTJ could never possibly be a 9 - but 9 is the only type that makes sense to me.)
    Sounds interesting. Except i'm too lazy to read book. I just want someone to analyze my weaknesses and tell me what I am.
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  9. #889
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Sounds interesting. Except i'm too lazy to read book. I just want someone to analyze my weaknesses and tell me what I am.
    No one can. Enneagram is much tougher than MBTI, that way.

    If you don't figure it out yourself, and get the "Oh, shit! I do that over and over without thinking about it," reaction, it isn't your type. Only you can realize that insight about yourself.

    I've studiously avoided conflict all my life, ever since I was a kid. I've never been in a fight. (Well, roughhousing with my brother doesn't count!) I obey stupid rules just so people don't bother me about obeying them. I look for the least confrontational solutions to my problems.

    Those kinds of insights aren't obvious to an INTJ who has mastered many topics and looks to all the world like some sort of 5w6. The thing is, I don't master things out of fear or to compensate for a weakness, but because it's what I do. It was a huge source of confusion until I realized that being an INTJ is what I consciously do, how I think, while the Enneagram is what I unconsciously do - how I react. I react like a type 9, without thinking hard about it at all. It's automatic.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The Riso-Hudson book is the classic: Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery: Don Richard Riso, Russ Hudson: 0046442798679: Amazon.com: Books

    It's interesting in part because the essentially map the types to the DSM - not explicitly, but if you look at the material, it covers many layers of psychological development and trauma.

    Also very useful for me was Helen Palmer's book: The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others In Your Life: Helen Palmer: 9780062506832: Amazon.com: Books

    The main thing I liked about this book is that its more anecdotal style helped me figure out the underlying core of Enneagram, namely that it is about weaknesses, about coping mechanisms. The "personalities" of the types are the coping mechanisms by which people of the type tend to deal with their key psychological weakness. If you figure out the weakness or coping mechanism, you know your Enneagram type, even if the personality doesn't match exactly. (The personality descriptions get a lot of "cruft" that combine MBTI personality types together and hide the fact that other MBTI types could have that Enneagram type. For instance, type 5 reads like a combination of INTJ and INTP, but hides the fact that INFP or ISTJ are also quite likely, and the type 9 descriptions read like INFP/ISFP/ISFJ emo crap that would seem to indicate that an INTJ could never possibly be a 9 - but 9 is the only type that makes sense to me.)
    I found Claudio Naranjo's offering - Character and Neurosis - very helpful. Reading through it helped me finally settle questions around my Enneatype. For a time, I was never very sure. Of all the Enneagram sites, I rate 9types as the best because they cut through the mountain of crap you'll find in type descriptions. I believe these are responsible for most of the mistypes we see (because of our social and cultural values/pressure, some types are superficially a lot more attractive than others). But if you look at the fundamental neuroses of each type, all of the gloss falls away.

    I read somewhere - I can't remember where - that your true Enneatype is likely to be the one you find most uncomfortable, even have the most contempt for. You shouldn't be flattered by what you see. It is because the system delves into such confronting aspects of our psyche that I feel it's very difficult to Enneatype somebody you don't know well...and that it's next to impossible to do online, where people for the most part show you an idealised version of themselves.
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