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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I'm taking your side on this one; it's not that considering the various possibilities intuition can present us with is bad, but what is bad is when we act on it or assume things without question. I used to have a bigger problem with this, although I've found over time with experience that our intuitions are often off, or at least incomplete. The truth quite often actually seems to be counter-intuitive - that is, it goes against our initial expectations.

    I read a quote once that went comething like: it's dangerour to jump to conclusions in regards to conspiracy theories; never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by Occam's Razor.
    Yes. This is something I feel people get wrong with Ne as well, that it generates "many" possibilities, when it is far closer to it generating one possibility and attaching itself to it with great propensity - "As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate." It's closer to a chain than a web, as you would intuitively expect from a term like 'extraverted intuition'.

    I think this is the lynchpin of all misunderstanding regarding the dichotomy between sensing an intuiting. From here, the misinterpretation of Ne and multiple possibilities took on an internal form, that an Ni type has meta-cognitive abilties in line with the parallel sort of processing an Ne type falsely contains. Throw in the fact that Jung used the word "mystical" in the type description and the whole situation is just about primed for anyone with an intellectual ego (a large portion of humanity) to fall into the pit of thinking.

    Mystical thinking, maybe, but not thinking mystically. That is reserved for the attribute of intelligence, not for a dichotomy between sensing and intuiting.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I am familiar with Jung, and this is still a stupid conflation on your part.

    If your reasoning weren't based so much on simple-minded Se "analysis", which is notoriously bad at seeing things from multiple perspectives, maybe the blinders could come off and you would see your erroneous reasoning for what it is.

    Oh, I understand how bad it can be.

    I'm also familiar with how amazingly accurate and insightful it can be on a pretty consistent basis.
    I read a little quip the other day, "If you give a dog water, food, and shelter, it will think you are God. If you give a cat water, food, and shelter, it will think it's God."

    Power. Power is somewhere in this mess.

    Also, you never addressed the poll.

  3. #73
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    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
    He wrote one of my favorite essays on the New World Order.

  5. #75
    Butterfly Amargith's Avatar
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    Because at first glance, INTJs tend to be stand-offish and give off a sense of superiority behind their Te-walls. Ime, what really is going on is observation of the situation and keeping people at an arms length to keep themselves safe as they evaluate that situation.

    Once they get past that phase, there is the condescension danger. Some INTJs will determine on their very personal Fi-values whether or not others are worthy of their admittedly limited energy and time - as we all do, btw, they 're just more...visceral about it. Which in itself can rightfully be experienced as condescension.

    After this, some people have their own values, prejudice and jump-to-conclusions problems which leads to dislike of said INTJ
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  6. #76
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    You haven't felt like your intelligence was being undermined? I don't know, it just seems so clear to me at the times I've felt this way. And there are a lot of situations which might trigger it, so I can't really say what constitutes it, because there are many ways it could manifest. But that's interesting that it's not an issue for you. Maybe I have less faith in my knowledge than you do, and so I seek external validation?
    Perhaps. No amount of telling me I'm wrong or even insulting me will make me question my intelligence. Generally, only two things can make me do that: (1) recognizing I have made a serious mistake or error in judgment; and (2) meeting someone who really is much more intelligent than I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    The lack of explanation is really lack of clarification. That's a better way to put it. If someone doesn't understand what you're talking about when you tell them they're wrong, it's only proper to explain why. I can understand, if you have some grand Ni theory which you have just divulged and a Ti person comes along and says it's rubbish why you'd feel an Fi reaction to just say you believe it and that's that- but it's not usually done out of hostility, it's just wanting to learn. See, this would be an example I think the other way around, which would be an XNTJ feeling their intelligence is being undermined.
    If someone doesn't understand my Ni theories, my natural reaction is to question their intelligence, not my own. I don't act on this, however, because I have learned that the fault often does lie with me, not with my intelligence but with my explanation. Unless they are being a jerk about it, I will make the effort to clarify to their satisfaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Live with one, have worked with two, have dated three, and have one as a sibling. I know my way around the INTJ circuit, including the knee-jerk Fi reaction on display here anytime you try telling them that one of their systemic inabilities is (gasp!) anything less than just another sign of their superiority and awesomeness in every tangible and intangible field of everything. Maybe INTJs can squeak out a few practical tasks when they absolutely have to, but nowhere near as good as SPs...and in my experience dealing with them, they much prefer to delegate such tasks as much as possible. The bulk of the 'work' they do involves endless research into a project, and finding people to help them with it. Attempting to dive in themselves and complete something in a timely fashion typically results in unexpected problems along the way, which infuriates them, and more often than not causes them to give up on the task completely (until they can find someone to do it for them), or just get it to a half-ass 'workable' level of completion. INTJs have remarkable patience in areas of no resistance, but in the presence of a sabotaging reality they just can't deal with it, and shut down-- forever avoiding such tasks in the future, which stunts their ability to problem solve mechanical reality.
    There is something to the Fi reaction you describe, and the tendency to see our weaknesses as strengths, or at least as not a problem. The rest, however, is unlike the INTJs in my acquaintance. I would say it sounds more like INTPs, but the INTPs are less likely even to try to implement their ideas. That is why we often make a good team. INTJ exterrnal judging drives us to realize our ideas and plans (or help an INTP realize theirs), not just think about them, and we will go to amazing lengths to make that happen. We teach ourselves whole new skills just to accomplish something, partly because we don't have (or don't think we have) the people skills or trust to delegate and engage a team. An INTJ with the failure rate you describe would be in dire straits indeed. Yes, SPs are the true masters at anything hands on and responding successfully in the moment. NTJ responses are slower, less reflexive, and based on doing our homework. The SP responds in the moment out of instinct; the NTJ responds out of planning and preparation. Another good team.

    AA has it right below:
    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I think quite a lot of INJ's and especially INTJ's like to shore up weaknesses as part of their contingency planning. Usually something involving an improvement in physical prowess, although this is by no means a rule. Although it's worth mentioning that this isn't necessarily anything to do with dealing with inferior influences.
    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    The bolded is my initial assertion as to why my preference coexists with a state of being farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr removed from introverted intuition. Human intuition is shown to be laughably weak at determining a true state of affairs, and Ni does not equate to good intuition, it equates to a higher propensity to employ intuition (and worse, stick by its guns).
    On average, this is likely correct, but then Ni-doms are a small minority of the population. If practice makes perfect, or at least improvement, types who prefer Ni and use it more will become better at it than others. That tendency to stand by our intuitions comes from a track record of their being correct, especially in certain areas or circumstances. I can almost assign a confidence level to my Ni ideas, and usually come fairly close.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I'm taking your side on this one; it's not that considering the various possibilities intuition can present us with is bad, but what is bad is when we act on it or assume things without question. I used to have a bigger problem with this, although I've found over time with experience that our intuitions are often off, or at least incomplete. The truth quite often actually seems to be counter-intuitive - that is, it goes against our initial expectations.
    As @Zarathustra said, you might be wise to doubt your intuition, but not ours. Moreover, I at least never trust it without question. If I don't have the means to answer those questions, though, and it is an area where my intuition has been right on in the past, I will trust it when a decision needs to be made. This is Ni and Te working together, with obvious influences of Fi and Se as well (considering available facts, and understanding the need/value of acting to support a goal).

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
    Combine all this, and you have INTJs in a nutshell.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #77
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    People - especially members of mbti forums - absolutely love intjs. If you doubt this ask enfps. In rl at first due to their know it all, Te blunt, stuck up vibes people might 'correctly' assume they are arrogant and dislike them but once they get to know them they usually get to like them probably due to their helpful honest attitudes. If there is any type people dislike and should not bother trying to maintain long term relationship with are intps. They have the opposite affect on people in rl. Like them at first and get disappointed with them later.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    If there is any type people dislike and should not bother trying to maintain long term relationship with are intps. They have the opposite affect on people in rl. Like them at first and get disappointed with them later.
    You've just summarized every failed attempt at friendship I've ever had.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    You've just summarized every failed attempt at friendship I've ever had.
    Blacks don't have friends. They have bros and sisters if i'm not mistaken. I've watched the wire.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    You've just summarized every failed attempt at friendship I've ever had.
    I would have kissed your tears away, but now I fear they are just drops of misdirected urin.
    Likes Sinmara liked this post

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