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  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The reason doubt appears to help you (when you have no real information at all), is that every statement of truth tends to have flaws. In politics the flaws are usually huge and glaring, but because both sides have their interests in the political outcome, both engage in half-truths, thus each leaving themselves open to arguments proving them wrong. Here's an example analysis along these lines: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...d-story-right/ (I don't particularly agree or disagree with the opinion presented, but it's a good example of trying to figure out what the real truth is.)

    That said, "doubt", per se, is NOT helping you, especially if you take "doubt' as meaning likely 100% false. What you are looking for is called "discernment", not "doubt". Discernment requires actually researching something (much easier now with the internet) on your own, allowing yourself to develop an informed opinion that isn't based on what people say, but on the overall patterns of what they're talking about.

    Here's an example of my personal opinion/discernment w/r to the 2nd invasion of Iraq. The problem in my mind is not whether Saddam deserved to be invaded and toppled. There are lots of reasons beyond WMDs that he "deserved" it, especially multiple violations of the no-fly zone and firing on US aircraft, any of which could be considered an act of war. Or if you want the moral argument, he was an evil dictator who, along with his sons, abused his people. But that's all irrelevant to the question of whether the war was a good idea in the first place. The problem is that the goal was to essentially turn Iraq into a client state. They called it "freeing Iraq" and probably had visions of Iraq existing as a free state completely independent of the US, but there was no way that could happen without a huge ongoing US military presence, and there was no way a huge military presence could be guaranteed for the decades necessary to stabilize things. Keeping troops in Germany, where no fighting has occurred since WW2, is politically easy. Keeping troops in Iraq, with ongoing incursions especially from Iran and various terrorist groups, is extremely politically difficult. That puts the US in a lose/lose situation: either stay and put up with soldiers getting killed but otherwise keeping the peace and protecting the Iraqi people, or leave and let the country devolve back into another autocratic state of some kind.

    So whether you buy my argument on this point or not, my big-picture point is that the "truth" of whether WMDs were really at stake is a non-issue. It could be true, and the invasion would still be a bad idea, or it could be false, in which case it was one out of 19-or-so cited reasons for the invasion that happened to be false. It's the matador's red cape, the reason that had political legs, and nothing more.
    It's all full truths damnit, I just gotta sweep this other stuff under the rug. Pay no attention to it, it's not relevant to MY point....lol
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    The point is, all the facts "eveyone knew" and all the emotions of "trying to help others out" led people into disaster. A more logical approach would have been better. Maybe I'd be less pissed about all the deaths that happened and all the chaos and destruction that caused if I wasn't the one getting blamed for it.

    You're assuming that your INTJ perspective on truth is superior to an INTP perspective on truth. I'm arguing differently.

    Anyway, who gives a shit that Dubya resulted in a lot of chaos and destruction? He was a heckuva nice fella, No, don't take responsiblity for any of that, just continue to let me take the fall for it.

    You got stuck on supporting data, not the point itself. I understand that beliefs are hard to get past, but you just proved his point to be true by your response whether what you are arguing is valid or not.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #753

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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I don't see how the negative qualities associated with INTJs are different from any other Ts. Actually, of all the T's the INTJs and ISTJs can be the most polite because they have tertiary Fi. They and the E-TPs are the closest to Feelers, so most likely to have more awareness and sensitivity to others.

    Edit: Just go the the various T forums and you will see that the INTJ forum is not more hostile or negative than the others. Although I would say the INTJ forum I remember seemed equally divided between INTJs and ISTJs.

    I agree with this. I find myself getting along very well with INTJ and ISTJ for this reason. Some of the INTJs that I met in real life are the nicest people ever.

    Like I have an INTJ classmate of mine (she self-typed herself as INTJ, and I agree with her self-typing, her thinking style and everything is so similar to Hilary Clinton, whom I believed is an INTJ as well) who is the most selfless person I ever met in my life. She is not very verbal and she doesn't express her feelings much, but she would often show her care and concern for people through practical actions. And true to her INTJ label, she is every teacher's pet because she would always score top in class in every exam and assignments, but at the same time, she is so humble, she doesn't look down on people who are struggling in their studies, but instead, she would go around the entire class and offer her help. Whenever she sees me feeling down, she will start dropping some words of wisdom and give me some advice about life. She is very deep, very wise, very intelligent, very caring. Although INTJs often appear blunt and asshole on the surface, but their tertiary Fi can make them very kind and caring at times. But of course, this is not visible on the surface because it's hidden deep deep beneath their tough exterior. It would take a very perceptive person to notice their soft warm gooey side that they keep hidden from the entire world.
    Likes labyrinthine liked this post

  4. #754
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    You got stuck on supporting data, not the point itself. I understand that beliefs are hard to get past, but you just proved his point to be true by your response whether what you are arguing is valid or not.
    First of all, I think @uumlau is a she. Second of all, I don't understand how I did that. Sometimes what "everyone knows" is false. Sometimes there are other possibilities. Sometimes there are things unseen.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
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  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    First of all, I think @uumlau is a she. Second of all, I don't understand how I did that. Sometimes what "everyone knows" is false. Sometimes there are other possibilities. Sometimes there are things unseen.
    U is a guy, it's kinda like u got sidetracked by the trees when Uumlau was trying to prove the forest. You started arguing about the trees which proves it's a forest.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #756
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    U is a guy, it's kinda like u got sidetracked by the trees when Uumlau was trying to prove the forest. You started arguing about the trees which proves it's a forest.
    Without trees, there'd be no forest.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
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  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Without trees, there'd be no forest.
    Right, but arguing about the trees proves that the trees are present and the forest is real. Who ever wins the argument about type, features, etc. Of the trees is a moot point in proving the forest.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #758
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    First of all, I think @uumlau is a she. Second of all, I don't understand how I did that. Sometimes what "everyone knows" is false. Sometimes there are other possibilities. Sometimes there are things unseen.
    Remember the part where I said you need to go look it up yourself? If you had looked it up yourself, you would have read "Male" on my profile page. It's one of those pesky things called "facts" that you keep on talking about but never actually employ in your arguments. (Which is in itself ironic, as I am not arguing with you, but illustrating perspectives of what truth really looks like.)

    I'm sure there's an INTP/INTJ perspective dispute going on, here, as you suggest, but that doesn't change my overall point about your statements. You're worried about whether something is "true" or not, and assert that "logic" would resolve all of these perceived difficulties. It is possible - and extremely common - to have all the facts, to have them all be true, and still be no closer to resolving a real life problem than if you had no facts at all. You are missing the forest (the overall truth and context) for the trees (individual facts).

    And let me be very clear, here. I am not trying to "prove" something to you. I am trying to show you something. I am pointing at where to look, and saying "go look for yourself". Go find those unseen things you mentioned, and then point them out to other people. Sitting on your butt talking about "facts" and $5 is only enough to get you a Starbuck's Latte, and not much else.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Right, but arguing about the trees proves that the trees are present and the forest is real. Who ever wins the argument about type, features, etc. Of the trees is a moot point in proving the forest.
    Both the trees and the forest are real. Or neither are. Trees and forests are concepts created by our brains. Are they true, then, or are they false?
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore


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  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Both the trees and the forest are real. Or neither are. Trees and forests are concepts created by our brains. Are they true, then, or are they false?
    Lol, the words is a figment of our imagination, but you can't deny the physical structure despite what it's called...well you can, but then I would just have fun with you by building a road with a tree right I the middle and watch you try to drive through it since it's just a concept created by our brain.
    Im out, its been fun

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