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  1. #711
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    similar is arbitrary to the degree that subtle variations lead to extreme differences. I Guess it's a matter of definining and what not but is it really worth argueing?
    I would never argue that similar things are not similar...

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    The idea that there is a collective unconscious doesn't necessarily rely on a premise of a null space anyways...it could be the product of environment as you said, but that begs the question...

    IF things are products or causality based in nature could causality not also have a symmetrical instance of synchronicity whereby events are acausal but do not necessarily violate causality?
    I always thought you were an ENTP, by the way. If you can show me evidence to support your view that events can be acausal without violating causality, we can talk. But I doubt you will get to the point where you can, as you have, say with confidence that ideas existing 'outside of our thought space' is a 'fact' and much less that it is 'verifiable by the very fact that any invention before conception is invented in at least half a dozen other places on the planet', because verification outside of logics and mathematics kind of relies on the premise of causality, and what you claimed is not a matter of either.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    That's all I'm saying about it g.
    I understand. I am only criticizing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    BTW you sound like you work in the sciences...or study them...do you?
    The German word for it has the German word for 'science' in it, but, apart from the posturing, it actually has very little to do with science.
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  2. #712
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I would never argue that similar things are not similar...


    I always thought you were an ENTP, by the way. If you can show me evidence to support your view that events can be acausal without violating causality, we can talk. But I doubt you will get to the point where you can, as you have, say with confidence that ideas existing 'outside of our thought space' is a 'fact' and much less that it is 'verifiable by the very fact that any invention before conception is invented in at least half a dozen other places on the planet', because verification outside of logics and mathematics kind of relies on the premise of causality, and what you claimed is not a matter of either.


    I understand. I am only criticizing it.


    The German word for it has the German word for 'science' in it, but, apart from the posturing, it actually has very little to do with science.

    Gotta be quick but...to adress some of the above...

    We already know that photons coexist with themselves in the past without violating causality. That was discovered this year. As for its implications beyond the threshold of quantum who is to say. Part of the issue is displavement, based on a scientists view point, that is the displacement caused on that which is measured by the measured.


    As for ideas existing outside of thought...rather what I mean is that ideas are non temporal in nature and existence in a thought space. Consider this...no scientific discovery in itself was isolated. Even einsteins idea of relativity was not his own. There are always a slew of thinkers who come to a breakthrough and it is always a face that gets the recognition but science is not just a dialogue among contemporary scientists but lives and breathes on its own as a separate beast.

    For example, the idea of a circle does not rely on a thinker. That idea exists even with no thinkers. In fact it is the other thing that must be proved. To not assume this a priori is illogical based on the principles of linearity. Even in out language we know this to be true.

    We say that we discovered relativity and not that we invented it but we do not mean there is this thing called relativity outside of us as much as the idea of it since I truth even the idea of relativity is a map of the terain and not the actual land.

    So the foundation of all of science relies on thougt forms being real in themselves and even a reductionist view point confirms this.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  3. #713
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Gotta be quick but...to adress some of the above...

    We already know that photons coexist with themselves in the past without violating causality. That was discovered this year. As for its implications beyond the threshold of quantum who is to say. Part of the issue is displavement, based on a scientists view point, that is the displacement caused on that which is measured by the measured.


    As for ideas existing outside of thought...rather what I mean is that ideas are non temporal in nature and existence in a thought space. Consider this...no scientific discovery in itself was isolated. Even einsteins idea of relativity was not his own. There are always a slew of thinkers who come to a breakthrough and it is always a face that gets the recognition but science is not just a dialogue among contemporary scientists but lives and breathes on its own as a separate beast.

    For example, the idea of a circle does not rely on a thinker. That idea exists even with no thinkers. In fact it is the other thing that must be proved. To not assume this a priori is illogical based on the principles of linearity. Even in out language we know this to be true.

    We say that we discovered relativity and not that we invented it but we do not mean there is this thing called relativity outside of us as much as the idea of it since I truth even the idea of relativity is a map of the terain and not the actual land.

    So the foundation of all of science relies on thougt forms being real in themselves and even a reductionist view point confirms this.
    Ah, language. It seems that is the crux. Yes, our languages - and indeed all human languages I am aware of - suggest that ideas are real in the Platonic sense (what you describe pretty much amounts to Platonic realism), which is why for most of modern history numbers, ideas, theories, compositions, memes, even literary characters and entire novels have been thought and often treated as existing in a special realm of ideas, as abstract entities. But language is a human thing and reality another. I agree with your observations, but I do not draw the same conclusions. The history of philosophy is rife with this object-based thinking, and I have never found it convincing.

  4. #714
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Ah, language. It seems that is the crux. Yes, our languages - and indeed all human languages I am aware of - suggest that ideas are real in the Platonic sense (what you describe pretty much amounts to Platonic realism), which is why for most of modern history numbers, ideas, theories, compositions, memes, even literary characters and entire novels have been thought and often treated as existing in a special realm of ideas, as abstract entities. But language is a human thing and reality another. I agree with your observations, but I do not draw the same conclusions. The history of philosophy is rife with this object-based thinking, and I have never found it convincing.
    My thinking is not really object based. It's in the middle of process and object based, or relational and object.

    For example, depending on the scale we could consider things as objects for a truer map of the reality, or we could consider a relational ideology like string theory.

    As for language, I see how you can come to that conclusion. I see language, stories, myths though as productions of dna and I see dna as something central to the universe, and i also see a sort of Irish cross where story, such as the story of the atom or string theory, effect dna, indirectly, or since we now know that, directly, by changing the environment.

    For example we could say that without the story of Jason or Perseus, the Greek minds would not have been in a culture where it was a heroic act to be willy and we would not have computers today - aristotilian logic being the foundation of all digital architecture.

    Someone would say that it is a leap to connect a mythology to the pathos of a people. That is not intuition that does that. It is logic. A myth has a biological function, as we have measure among indigenous people, and serves as much a role as breathing oxygen in the survival of a species.

    Even the idea of someone believing in god at some point is required for science. There has never been a scientific experience which wasn't laid on a foundation of Newtonian phsyics, and as we know newton drew his inspirations and ideas from astrology. Without astrology, there would be no science. Astrology was the required step for the evolution of science to emerge as a child of astrology speaking in terms of sequence.

    We can be atheist scientists but forever our work will lie on the back of gnostic greek philosophers. There is no way to dodge this fact.

    As for being an ENTP...that may or may not be.

    The way I live my life is more ENTJ based. The way I write is also more ENTJ based. I State my belief and then I give an example and I go on like that in a very linear way.

    Most people who think I am random think so because their scope of intelligence is very, very narrow and to them anything other than a strict constellation around the subject matter is random.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  5. #715
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    My thinking is not really object based. It's in the middle of process and object based, or relational and object.

    For example, depending on the scale we could consider things as objects for a truer map of the reality, or we could consider a relational ideology like string theory.

    As for language, I see how you can come to that conclusion. I see language, stories, myths though as productions of dna and I see dna as something central to the universe, and i also see a sort of Irish cross where story, such as the story of the atom or string theory, effect dna, indirectly, or since we now know that, directly, by changing the environment.

    For example we could say that without the story of Jason or Perseus, the Greek minds would not have been in a culture where it was a heroic act to be willy and we would not have computers today - aristotilian logic being the foundation of all digital architecture.

    Someone would say that it is a leap to connect a mythology to the pathos of a people. That is not intuition that does that. It is logic. A myth has a biological function, as we have measure among indigenous people, and serves as much a role as breathing oxygen in the survival of a species.

    Even the idea of someone believing in god at some point is required for science. There has never been a scientific experience which wasn't laid on a foundation of Newtonian phsyics, and as we know newton drew his inspirations and ideas from astrology. Without astrology, there would be no science. Astrology was the required step for the evolution of science to emerge as a child of astrology speaking in terms of sequence.

    We can be atheist scientists but forever our work will lie on the back of gnostic greek philosophers. There is no way to dodge this fact.
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  6. #716
    Member Bnova's Avatar
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    I don't get why people dislike me...my inner circle of friends like me...others are nice to me because I'm nice back,easy to approach(if I planned it before hand,but if someone just randomly came up to me who wasn't in my calculations I tend to respond immediately or walk away considering the situation first,like boy/girl, if girl,sexy/ugly?,if boy what is he wearing? What shoes? How does it look for his overall look, back to girl,teeth/smile, eyes(always holds the truth) body language(slightly turned/ straight forward pointing at me suggesting real,usually I'd just pay attention to the eyes because girls let there emotion /true intention slip,a cool idea would be to check there pulse but I hate touching ,its just eww...etc etc etc) well I am a bit narcissistic I'm guessing,people around my parts just accept me,they don't think I'm narcissistic they just believe I'm always right and that nothing can change how "smart" I am personally I just think I'm an idea person/:

  7. #717
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnova View Post
    I don't get why people dislike me..

    I have absolutely no clue either.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  8. #718
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnova View Post
    if someone just randomly came up to me who wasn't in my calculations I tend to respond immediately or walk away considering the situation first,like boy/girl, if girl,sexy/ugly?,if boy what is he wearing? What shoes? How does it look for his overall look, back to girl,teeth/smile, eyes(always holds the truth
    You would refuse to engage in conversation with someone based on their looks, smile, eyes, or type of shoes? Yeah. Boy, I don't know why anyone wouldn't like you. That's a real head-scratcher.
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  9. #719
    Member Bnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    You would refuse to engage in conversation with someone based on their looks, smile, eyes, or type of shoes? Yeah. Boy, I don't know why anyone wouldn't like you. That's a real head-scratcher.
    Looks,first impressions, based on all information received I will evaluate who this person is,what her/his intentions are and proceed with the correct response,in my part of the world enemies are everywhere ,people want to see your downfall especially us who are put on high for the world to see there's a lot of enemies who wants to see us fall, I don't trust anyone

  10. #720
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnova View Post
    I don't get why people dislike me...my inner circle of friends like me...others are nice to me because I'm nice back,easy to approach(if I planned it before hand,but if someone just randomly came up to me who wasn't in my calculations I tend to respond immediately or walk away considering the situation first,like boy/girl, if girl,sexy/ugly?,if boy what is he wearing? What shoes? How does it look for his overall look, back to girl,teeth/smile, eyes(always holds the truth) body language(slightly turned/ straight forward pointing at me suggesting real,usually I'd just pay attention to the eyes because girls let there emotion /true intention slip,a cool idea would be to check there pulse but I hate touching ,its just eww...etc etc etc) well I am a bit narcissistic I'm guessing,people around my parts just accept me,they don't think I'm narcissistic they just believe I'm always right and that nothing can change how "smart" I am personally I just think I'm an idea person/:
    Which people dislike you? You mentioned your circle of friends like you and others are nice because you are nice and approachable to them. Like BadOctopus, though, I find the things you look at/for to be rather superficial. What makes you look favorably on someone, after first acquaintance?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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