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  1. #691
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Fi tells us that what we are arguing for is important.
    Translated: I am right.

    That is what makes us stick to our guns.
    Translated: You are wrong.

    It doesn't say "my position is more important than yours", just that mine is so important I can't let it go.
    Translated: My position is so important I am willing to devalue yours by not listening to you and hearing why yours is important to you.

    In this sense, it is not thinking of the other person at all.
    Exactly.

    It should recognize somewhere that the other person may value his/her position just as much, and recognize the situation as a draw on this count, and move on to some other form of measuring the one position against the other. This is where INTJs should use Te to sort it out.
    You're already relying more on Te or it wouldn't be so black and white. So, not sure if Te is the "go-to" in this kind of scenario.

    When I find myself in such a situation, especially IRL where real things are at stake, I try to ask: why is the other person so invested in this? what is important to him/her (what is his/her stake) in the situation? Identifying this and following up with a strong Te argument that shows how their needs or values are supported as well is how win-win solutions often come about.
    I don't see a lot of win-win come out of this irl though. And honestly, a person favoring Ji has to really believe strongly in a thing to go to battle like this with Je to even get to this point. It's not that Ji lacks conviction, it's just that Je is only convinced with Je-style arguments (haha because Je is always right), and it is a lot of energy to put those formulations together. Never mind the fact that so little empathy is involved in the process, recognizing the difficulty, that it can be very intense and stressful.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
    Likes lulabelle liked this post

  2. #692
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    If we're generalising, INTJs (and IxTx types in general) can suffer from an reluctance to see the other person's perspective, and dogmatism. I just can't imagine an INTJ "losing his shit" over politics because they're not externally passionate people, and a few anecdotes on the forum won't change that. I will explain why in a second.

    Emotional under pressure? TBH, that reminds me of Fi doms more than any other types. It doesn't take much for them to start insulting you and what you believe, because there is no function above to rein in their Fi. The recent threads on Islam are a good example of this, as Tellenbach and I were subjected to a barrage of insults and Fi stubbornness. I was frustrated and offended by that, so eventually left.

    Angry feelings are liable to just take over whenever INFP values, especially, are crossed, and an INTJ, even an INTJ cp6, will not react so strongly. While being passionate about what you believe is not a bad thing in and of itself; you just need to be able to take a step back and not worship your own ideology like a religion. (I know liberals are not the only people who do that, btw.)

    /moralising over
    hmm, I have looked in the recent threads and Mole quoted you and Marmotini too, that's the evidence you are using? Perhaps more posts are graveyarded? If so, please do point them out.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #693
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You're already relying more on Te or it wouldn't be so black and white. So, not sure if Te is the "go-to" in this kind of scenario.
    What other approach do you recommend to Te dom/aux types when they have at least taken the step of recognizing the other person is equally invested in his/her position, for probably equally good reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I don't see a lot of win-win come out of this irl though. And honestly, a person favoring Ji has to really believe strongly in a thing to go to battle like this with Je to even get to this point. It's not that Ji lacks conviction, it's just that Je is only convinced with Je-style arguments (haha because Je is always right), and it is a lot of energy to put those formulations together. Never mind the fact that so little empathy is involved in the process, recognizing the difficulty, that it can be very intense and stressful.
    I do. In a real situation where choices need to be made, I find the other person is rarely opposing me out of spite, meanness, or just to be difficult. Usually they have some goals or needs that my preferred course of action would interfere with. If I can find out what these are, I can then offer a solution that satisfies both of us, even if it means compromising my original idea. This is often possible because there is more than one way to achieve a goal, for both of us.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #694
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    ..at least taken the step of recognizing the other person is equally invested in his/her position, for probably equally good reasons?
    Take the next step and evaluate why the other person is so invested on their idea. Now that you figured it out, imagine a possibility that its true and create a scenario in your mind where it is true. If you still see some obvious "mistakes", explain the mistakes so that they can hear your opinion about the matter. If they still disagree, hear them out and create a new scenario where this is true. If you still find mistakes, tell them the mistakes and why it cant be true. Hear them out again and repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I thought that immaturity would manifest itself as a refusal to consider anything but the logical implications of an issue, even when emotional implications should be considered.
    Immature Fi is not acting rationally("only differentiated functions can be directed", or something like that -Jung), instead undeveloped Fi is dictating the person based on unconscious predispositions on the matter at hand, and it can tell the person to follow some logic that is not really logical, but only appears so. And lets face it, INTJ is not a rational type, but their dom function is an irrational one. Even tho they have Te as secondary function and that can provide hard facts, the decisions on what hard facts to follow is most of the time the irrational Ni talking.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #695
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Take the next step and evaluate why the other person is so invested on their idea. Now that you figured it out, imagine a possibility that its true and create a scenario in your mind where it is true. If you still see some obvious "mistakes", explain the mistakes so that they can hear your opinion about the matter. If they still disagree, hear them out and create a new scenario where this is true. If you still find mistakes, tell them the mistakes and why it cant be true. Hear them out again and repeat.
    This is pretty much what I try to do, but I rely heavily on Te in doing so, resisting Ni suggestions of what their investment might be in favor of what it actually is based on their input. I will sometimes ask specifically: if we were to do it my way, what problems would this cause for you? I'm not sure why PB thinks Te might not be helpful here.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #696
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is pretty much what I try to do, but I rely heavily on Te in doing so, resisting Ni suggestions of what their investment might be in favor of what it actually is based on their input. I will sometimes ask specifically: if we were to do it my way, what problems would this cause for you? I'm not sure why PB thinks Te might not be helpful here.
    You know how with Pi sometimes things just slide into place at an unexpected time, and you feel like you just know something, have gained a direction or insight?

    I think Ji is like that too, yet in a different purview. For me, all of the "judgey" work is internal so I can't articulate all of the reasons why I've decided on a course of action in the moment. Then suddenly, I will have a thought that is the perfect way to express myself in Je terms. But this is not predictable; in the moment, when pressed with your question, I sometimes can't come out with reasons, sometimes all I can say is that it just feels right or wrong to proceed on the present course. Which few people actually realize has a depth to it beyond something "emotional", irrational or self-absorbed.

    (eta: sometimes when I have spent the time to unearth all of my own reasons or objections to a thing, there are dozens of reasons all contributing to the overall feeling of "wrong". So, that's a lot of stuff to present and prioritize.)

    So, pressing with Te isn't going to help unearth Ji reservations. If anything, at least in my observational and personal experience, it's likely to shut people down. Certainly it's contingent on Ji to learn to speak Je and Ji doms and auxs have to or else Je people never take them seriously as presenting rational arguments. However, it would be wise for Je to realize this about other people, the ones that don't seem to have an argument at the ready. It's in there, just needs help to "get out".

    My advice would be to give Ji time, patience and a safe space to open those insights into. Imagine what you need for Pi to slide into focus. What helps you?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #697
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I really like INTJs, so I don't relate to the hating feeling. I do find I need to re-calibrate my interpretation of language when communicating with INTJs. They can use a forceful style in debate, and my one complaint is that there can be a tendency for some (not all) to zero in on one focus point and hammer it in. What people don't realize though, is that the INTJ will look at a topic from a different perspective if you take the right approach. I've been friends with some of the more steely-minded ones, and so learned how to debate.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)


  8. #698
    A GOD Mace's Avatar
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    INTJs strike off as odd & eccentric types. Schizotypal.

    Have great difficulty in communicating "what is" which could make any of them appear like they are schizophrenic although it is not always the case.

    May also exhibit an odd way of vocalising their speech, which sounds monotone.

  9. #699
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    @Ene -- below is my underwhelming response. (Thank you, btw, even if my response is amateurish enough to *seem* insulting at first glance.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @grey_beard



    Haha…not to worry.



    You most likely did.

    I am a first degree black sash in Baguazhang [not that it means so much, except I earned my rank on the anniversary of Bruce Lee’s death. For some reason that felt significant to me, because I didn’t realize what day it was until I got home and saw it on the news. It seemed like a good omen, or a bad one, depending on how you look at it, or maybe just a neat incident of synchronicity.]



    I will do my best.

    .

    How could I refuse a fellow Ni-dom with his hat in his hand? That is not a sight I see everyday. See the bolded; I think that’s a cool idea.

    But without being able to demonstrate the physical actions, this may be hard to do. Demonstration is a huge part of martial arts training. I am taking one very small, simple technique and breaking it down. It, of course, is a piece of a much larger puzzle that I would later begin to help my students put together. Bagua is an art that is built up over many years and everything is completely connected to everything else.

    As with any body of knowledge, martial arts are very varied and comprehensive, spanning the globe, so I will zero in on my particular chosen style and from that I will zero in on one particular concept.

    So let’s pretend you are a new student, who maybe just walked in off the street, showing up at one of my regular classes. Let’s say you asked me to teach you just one concept, whichever one we happen to be working on that day. Maybe you say you are doing it for an experiment in how cognitive functions affect a teacher’s communication. [That’s not stretching our pretending too far.]
    Well, that's basically what I'm doing in this thread, so the concept is 'congruent'...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    How would you like to learn a basic concept of our family lineage’s Southern-Style Chinese staff fighting today? That’s what we’re working on in class today.
    [My partner and I would demonstrate some staff fighting and all of the students would say…cool or bad…or awesome…or maybe, “I’m out of here. These people are nuts.”]

    So, let’s take just one of those concepts, how to control your staff.

    Now, keep in mind that even though we’re using a bamboo staff in today’s class, anything with a handle can be a weapon and I do mean anything, a broom, a mop, a cane, a hoe, a rake, a bat, anything.
    That's important, apparently: there is a kind of mental and physical *fluidity* I see in the martial arts, where the same actions or forms can be utilized and combined and recombined in all kinds of ways, but still retain their identity.

    Kind of like how 26 letters can make all the words, or like one can build simple UNIX commands into complex and elegant scripts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Now, I want you to hold your staff like this. Your right hand should be between six inches and a foot from the end of your staff and your left hand should be about a foot from your right one. [Demonstrate and check to make sure every student is doing it correctly. If they’re not, I help them.] This position allows for the maximum output of energy with minimum effort on your part. We do it this way because it is the most efficient way we’ve found.

    The right knuckles face upward and are curled just tight enough to guide the stick but are relaxed and loose enough to let it slide, and the left fingers face upward as they curl around the stick. Now, we are going to learn to control the stick with the left hand, unless you are left-handed, then we are going to switch sides and do it the opposite way because in this technique the weak hand controls the bottom of the stick. The strong hand guides the stick. [Demonstrate it both ways. I watch and make sure everybody’s got the feel of it.]
    Wow. *chills* down my spine -- you're a gifted teacher, as I can visualize, and all but *feel* this as I read the words: and I am not usually visually inclined in my imagination...only sometimes in my memory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Now, make small, tight circles with the hand near the back end of your stick, usually the left, [I demonstrate it] and you will notice that this causes the other end of your stick, the longer end that is in front of the left side of your body where you should be holding your stick, to make much wider circles. This exercise is to help you be able to do this. My partner here comes in on me to attack me [my partner comes at me as if attempting to attack me] and instead of hitting him with my stick; I shove the back of my stick forward right through the loose fingers of my right hand as if shooting pool. See, as he came at me he was expecting me to hit him, not shoot him as if he were a pool ball. This is very much like controlling a pool stick. The hand at the back of the stick generates the power and momentum and the resulting impact is much greater than if I just whacked him over the head. Much of kung fu depends on understanding how energy is moved from point A to point B in the most efficient way.

    It’s important that you don’t think of the staff, or any weapon for that matter, as something separate from yourself, but rather as an extension of yourself. It’s an extension of your arm. Never focus on the weapon. And don’t “try” to be fast. Instead, be fluid. Remember, that smoothness, fluidity, is speed. Again, don’t worry about being fast in a technique. Concentrate on making it a natural part of your own movement. Practice it until it is fluid, until it flows and you don’t even have to think about it. Commit it to your muscle memory. Keep doing it over and over, until you can do a move without thinking about it, like a reflex. Until it becomes a natural part of your physical and mental makeup, you haven’t learned it. You must internalize it so that it becomes an external part of yourself. You are not holding a weapon, you are the weapon. To my younger students I might ask them to tell me what I just said in my own words. I would have the students practice this movement over and over and over.
    I think that this has always been my stumbling block -- I know that precision is important instead of sloppiness, in weightlifting as in (hat tip to @uumlau) dancing as in martial arts, and I think I get too...pedantic, overly precise, overly literal and controlled, in my movements. This has the effect of making me self-conscious and hesitant instead of fluidly moving with power.
    The muscle memory I get, I have it in bicycling and (oddly enough) some typing and computer commands, built into my fingers without thinking: in fact, I find that when I *try* to think of the command on how to do something, I lock up.(1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I would then place some small rings around the walls of the room and have the students practice controlling that stick with their weak hand until they could get a strike through the ring. We would work on precision and then I would make the ring smaller. When the student had mastered that technique, I would instruct them to practice it at home and go back and work on previously learned skills or perhaps introduce the next concept, but I rarely teach more than one or two new concepts in a single session. Most people can’t handle more than one or two new techniques per lesson.

    Oh, I have to end this lesson for now. I am supposed to see a movie with an ISTJ. Have you ever been late to do something with an ISTJ? It's like the unpardonable sin.
    (1) bonus problem: how does one do the endless repetition and drills best, in order to put them into muscle memory? in class? at home? how do you check your form so you don't "learn" improper form in your muscle memory? in a mirror?

    and does it bother you if a student is a "slow" muscle learner? that is, they have an *approximation* of last week's lesson, but continue to be choppy and clumsy at it?

    Thanks again, you've given me a lot to think about and a much ...cleaner, crisper...appreciation for it.

    All the best!
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  10. #700
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    In keeping with the topic of this forum, I want to say that actually, in all honesty, INTJs "may" just be the type I enjoy being around and talking to the most. I am always curious to compare the way we think.

    My kung fu teacher was working with me on using a chain whip one day; my ISTP training partner and I kept having trouble with a particular turn. So, I started verbally breaking down his every move and bouncing it off my partner who, in turn, would do what I said. When all of a sudden our teacher looked at me with and said, "I know how you think now. You have an analytical mind." He seemed quite amused by that revelation.



    @grey_beard
    below is my underwhelming response. (Thank you, btw, even if my response is amateurish enough to *seem* insulting at first glance.)
    You are welcome and it does not seem amateurish to me


    there is a kind of mental and physical *fluidity* I see in the martial arts, where the same actions or forms can be utilized and combined and recombined in all kinds of ways, but still retain their identity.

    Kind of like how 26 letters can make all the words, or like one can build simple UNIX commands into complex and elegant scripts.
    Absolutely. My teacher [the INTJ] says that every technique is like a tool. He shows me how to operate each tool. The way I decide to put them together is up to me. Each tool can have a hundred or sometimes more applications. It's really a mix and match thing. Martial arts has to become a part of a person to be effective. It becomes a part of you just like learning to drive a car. You get into your car and you don't consciously think about the process of backing out of the drive or shifting gears. It becomes automatic, but when you first learned, you had to put concentrated effort into the tiniest maneuvers. The fluidity in martial arts comes from practicing over and over for the span of a lifetime. I will do martial arts for as long as I live. I will never cease to be a martial artist anymore than I will cease to be an artist. It becomes a thing we are and not a thing we do over the course of time.



    Wow. *chills* down my spine -- you're a gifted teacher, as I can visualize, and all but *feel* this as I read the words: and I am not usually visually inclined in my imagination...only sometimes in my memory.
    Thank you!!!

    I am glad it made sense!

    I think that this has always been my stumbling block -- I know that precision is important instead of sloppiness, in weightlifting as in (hat tip to @uumlau) dancing as in martial arts, and I think I get too...pedantic, overly precise, overly literal and controlled, in my movements.
    The wonderful thing is that it doesn't matter at first. It's like a baby learning to walk. Even Ni-doms can learn to do it

    I think this is an Ni-dom stumbling block, but it CAN be overcome. Both my teacher and I are proof of that. He is the fastest man I've ever seen! I tease him and call him Master Yoda, because he walks with a cane. He was injured in an automobile accident that nearly killed him, yet when he fights, he's all over the place, so that's why I call him Yoda. However, he is pretty wise, except for calling me Twinkie and I think that's just plain orneriness.


    This has the effect of making me self-conscious and hesitant instead of fluidly moving with power.
    Absolutely, but that's where a good teacher comes in, reassuring the student that every person learns in his/ her own way at their own pace.

    The muscle memory I get, I have it in bicycling and (oddly enough) some typing and computer commands, built into my fingers without thinking: in fact, I find that when I *try* to think of the command on how to do something, I lock up.(1)
    Yes! Exactly. That is how it becomes with martial arts. When a technique has been learned to the point that it has become "automatic" it takes a concentrated effort to slow it down and teach it! Yet, I love it, because each time I do it, I re-examine myself.


    (1) bonus problem: how does one do the endless repetition and drills best, in order to put them into muscle memory? in class? at home?
    Everywhere. All the time. When I'm teaching class, I'm training. When I'm walking through Wal-Mart, I'm training. When I'm watching TV or driving my car, I'm training. I'm constantly aware of the way I move, how I hold my body, how I walk, how I breathe, etc. I train at home, everyday and at the school everyday. I do the forms over and over and over and mix them up and do them forward and backward and even do them in my mind.

    how do you check your form so you don't "learn" improper form in your muscle memory? in a mirror?
    You find yourself a partner who knows as much or more than you do. I have a partner that I train with three days a week. I call my teacher any time I have a question and he will actually come visit me and help me work out any kinks I'm having.

    and does it bother you if a student is a "slow" muscle learner?
    Oh, I would lie if I said that it didn't. BUT, I understand that I must cater the system to fit the student and not the student to fit the system. I must teach the individual, not the curriculum. By that I mean that I will do whatever it takes , for as long as it takes, until the student "gets" it, if the student truly wants to learn it. I tell them that some things come more naturally to some than others, but that doesn't mean we can't learn and be effective.


    that is, they have an *approximation* of last week's lesson, but continue to be choppy and clumsy at it?
    Then I just keep working with them on it until the day comes when they aren't choppy and clumsy at it.

    Thanks again, you've given me a lot to think about and a much ...cleaner, crisper...appreciation for it.
    You are welcome.

    Yesterday, my teacher was watching me teach a class and as I drew a diagram on the floor with a piece of chalk to help a student know how to move her feet he said, "That is a very ingenious way to teach that concept." He, the Master INTJ, was pleased with my ingenuity. He loves out of the box ideas and ways of implementing the system in ways that people can understand. So, are you all that way? Or just the really cool ones? haha.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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