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  1. #671
    Chumped. Obsidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Our gang sign would be a single raised eyebrow.
    Don't forget the sardonic smile, you know, the one that kind of says "at least you tried"
    Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man.

  2. #672
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    I think, in addition to the emotional coldness of many INTJs, one of the major issues people have with us is the arrogance. Or rather, perceived arrogance. I don't set out to be arrogant, but people often see me that way. I'm confident, and I speak with authority... otherwise I don't speak at all. But that's not the same as arrogance.

    I think people often confuse confidence with arrogance. Arrogance means being condescending, putting others down, and acting like you have an answer for everything, even when you don't. Confidence is being sure of what you know -- and what you don't know. A confident person knows his limitations, and isn't too proud to admit when he's wrong.

    I don't doubt that some INTJs are arrogant. Any type can be. But I think it's more likely that INTJs simply present a frank, direct, self-assured air that many people perceive as arrogance.
    I think the arrogance really depends mostly on how developed INTJs Fi is. I mean the inner realm of INTJ is NiFi, extraverted functions really just work to support what ever intuitions and feelings INTJ has and undeveloped Fi is not consciously controlled and therefore it can make INTJ to really follow what he is feeling(which in these cases are like feelings of a 5 year old) and just using Te and Se to gain support to NF and using them as ways to rationalize stuff(find at least somehow logical/factual evidence to make up a logic that would support the intuition and feeling and then convince self that it was logical all along, even tho there really is just some loose pseudo logic). This is what blinds some INTJs from seeing that they are being arrogant, because they blind themselves from the true origin and then just try to find some justification for what they think or feel.

    Also i dont believe in this emotional coldness of INTJs, in fact it couldnt be further from the truth, its just that IXTXs usually hide their feelings from others. Also because F of INTJ is introverted and tert, its quite common to see INTJs who havent developed their Fi, which makes them quite self-centered(and childlike) in their Feeling department and are usually not very empathetic(except some strong bursts of empathy here and there).

    So the bottom line is that INTJs are more prone to becoming self-centered arrogant pricks easier than ESFJ for example unless they are raised with care or until they develop their feeling side more, learn from life and pull their heads from theyr butts.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #673
    Junior Member Kevin A.S.'s Avatar
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    I don't hate INTJ. I know very well about INTJ personality, what is their tendency and the reason behind it. Therefore i can accept their behaviour.

    I don't say that there are many people who hate INTJ. But if there is a person who hate INTJ. It maybe because one of these reasons :

    - INTJ have bold personality. They do what they want to do if they think it can be truly happen. I mean, you know INTJ is stubborn.
    - Some of INTJ have high temperament.
    - They seen like they don't want to take the role of the other's people (who doesn't related to INTJ) problem.
    - Sometime INTJ impose other people to doing something, whereas that person doesn't have sufficient capability to do what INTJ command.
    - They maybe look crazy or a little weird.

    Well, that's all of my perceptions about why INTJ being hated CMIIW. What make me can accepting that all INTJ behaviours is because of these reasons :

    - I know you maybe look like crazy people but it because you are higher than normal, that's why other people difficult to understand you.
    - Sometimes INTJ impose other person because they forget that the other people doesn't have high ability as INTJ.
    - You don't have affection because you don't want your emotion will bother you to reach your goal. This is classic statement, but i see some of INTJ rarely the role of the other because they have a principle like this "you must solve your problem by yourself so you can growing". Therefore INTJ don't like to interfere other people's problem, otherwise INTJ don't like other people disturb their problem too.
    Likes Obsidius liked this post

  4. #674

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    [...] the fact that ideas exist outside of our thought space, which is verifiable by the very fact that any invention before conception is invented in at least half a dozen other places on the planet, I often times mentally mind blast the other person with a slew of words and facts beyond the horizon of their mind-space, for lack of better word.
    What do you mean by 'exist'? Similar organisms with similar needs and desires in similar environments tend to do similar things. That proves absolutely nothing about ideas, except that they originate in thinking organisms.

  5. #675
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What do you mean by 'exist'? Similar organisms with similar needs and desires in similar environments tend to do similar things. That proves absolutely nothing about ideas, except that they originate in thinking organisms.
    similar is arbitrary to the degree that subtle variations lead to extreme differences. I Guess it's a matter of definining and what not but is it really worth argueing?

    The idea that there is a collective unconscious doesn't necessarily rely on a premise of a null space anyways...it could be the product of environment as you said, but that begs the question...

    IF things are products or causality based in nature could causality not also have a symmetrical instance of synchronicity whereby events are acausal but do not necessarily violate causality?

    That's all I'm saying about it g.

    BTW you sound like you work in the sciences...or study them...do you?
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  6. #676
    Senior Member lulabelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I think the arrogance really depends mostly on how developed INTJs Fi is. I mean the inner realm of INTJ is NiFi, extraverted functions really just work to support what ever intuitions and feelings INTJ has and undeveloped Fi is not consciously controlled and therefore it can make INTJ to really follow what he is feeling(which in these cases are like feelings of a 5 year old) and just using Te and Se to gain support to NF and using them as ways to rationalize stuff(find at least somehow logical/factual evidence to make up a logic that would support the intuition and feeling and then convince self that it was logical all along, even tho there really is just some loose pseudo logic). This is what blinds some INTJs from seeing that they are being arrogant, because they blind themselves from the true origin and then just try to find some justification for what they think or feel.

    Also i dont believe in this emotional coldness of INTJs, in fact it couldnt be further from the truth, its just that IXTXs usually hide their feelings from others. Also because F of INTJ is introverted and tert, its quite common to see INTJs who havent developed their Fi, which makes them quite self-centered(and childlike) in their Feeling department and are usually not very empathetic(except some strong bursts of empathy here and there).

    So the bottom line is that INTJs are more prone to becoming self-centered arrogant pricks easier than ESFJ for example unless they are raised with care or until they develop their feeling side more, learn from life and pull their heads from theyr butts.
    wow. so damn accurate. immature INTJs can be so flippin irrational about very personal issues that touch their Fi... like anything to do with feminism and masculinity if they're a dude, for instance. they can be completely incapable of engaging different sides of a sensitive issue without losing their shyt

  7. #677
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulabelle View Post
    wow. so damn accurate. immature INTJs can be so flippin irrational about very personal issues that touch their Fi... like anything to do with feminism and masculinity if they're a dude, for instance. they can be completely incapable of engaging different sides of a sensitive issue without losing their shyt
    Really? I find I am usually more willing to examine various sides to such issues because I refuse to be deterred by whatever emotional baggage may surround them. There are no taboos. Either something makes sense in a factual or causal way, or does not. My ENTJ friend is the same way.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #678
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    @Coriolis Same here. If anything, I can be too detached and logical about things that other people consider to be "sensitive" or "taboo" issues, because I want to get all the facts before forming an opinion.

    But lulabelle was talking about immature INTJs, who can often fall into the trap of their own personal logic, and refuse to consider any opinions which differ from their own.
    WOOP WOOP WOOP

  9. #679
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    But lulabelle was talking about immature INTJs, who can often fall into the trap of their own personal logic, and refuse to consider any opinions which differ from their own.
    I thought that immaturity would manifest itself as a refusal to consider anything but the logical implications of an issue, even when emotional implications should be considered.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #680
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I thought that immaturity would manifest itself as a refusal to consider anything but the logical implications of an issue, even when emotional implications should be considered.
    I've definitely observed that sort of behavior on an INTJ forum I used to frequent. But I also saw quite a few INTJs who were extremely emotional in their defense of impartial logic. Which seems paradoxical, contradictory, and downright crazy, but there you have it.

    Honestly though, I think any type can be overly emotional, if they're poorly developed, including INTJs. It just takes different triggers to set them off.

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