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Thread: Why do people hate INTJs?

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    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    I disagree with this notion. I see this as an advertising thing and advertising is the evil demon spawn of Freud's hatred for his father due to excessive cocaine use.

    On a serious note though,

    I'm aware that some people believe that true genius is dumb-ing down a very complicated notion into bite size pieces for the majority, but I think we hit critical mass now, you know, in 2015, and everything is in a liminal state where what we believed in the 1800's is no longer true...this notion of course, of dumb-ing down, coming from that era's Aristocracy.

    I mean there is a balance of course and then there is the effect on the person where by which they seek to learn the word and become influenced for the better by you...

    Or we can go with what sells....and do the diet coke...do you do the diet coke? It's a new dance.
    As for the bolded -- both Dick Feynman and C.S. Lewis subscribed to this : "If you can't explain something (to a class of physics freshmen) / (in words of one syllable)" then you don't really understand it yourself.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #632
    The Green Jolly Robin H. Array GarrotTheThief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    As for the bolded -- both Dick Feynman and C.S. Lewis subscribed to this : "If you can't explain something (to a class of physics freshmen) / (in words of one syllable)" then you don't really understand it yourself.

    Again, I've heard that quotation, but we can't just blindly follow quotations. Benjamin Franklin said a penny saved is a penny earned and he was quite wrong in most contexts,...so we can't always just go by random quotations that are used out of context.

    But again, I see the wisdom.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  3. #633
    The Green Jolly Robin H. Array GarrotTheThief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Words exist for a reason. Different words for the same thing rarely mean exactly the same thing. Sometimes one is just better than another, like the 8 mm allen key vs the 5/16 one when you really do have a metric screw. As they say about tools, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
    totally agree with you here...
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  4. #634
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    As for the bolded -- both Dick Feynman and C.S. Lewis subscribed to this : "If you can't explain something (to a class of physics freshmen) / (in words of one syllable)" then you don't really understand it yourself.
    If someone needs things explained in words of one syllable, he/she doesn't belong in a physics classroom.

    (As someone about to teach freshman physics, I do hope I am not wrong about this.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  5. #635
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If someone needs things explained in words of one syllable, he/she doesn't belong in a physics classroom.

    (As someone about to teach freshman physics, I do hope I am not wrong about this.)
    Hahahah!

    You're both right, though you seem to be misunderstanding the quote(s). Lewis said "words of one syllable", which is not as applicable to physics as most other topics. Also, Lewis was using a bit of hyperbole, as it is nigh impossible to say anything with words of one syllable.

    Feynman was talking about explaining to physics freshmen, not using super-simple words. Heck, in physics, half the problem of teaching physics at that early level are all the technical words that have very specific meanings but also have colloquial meanings (energy, force, work, etc.) .

    So, no you don't need to use small words, but as a freshman physics class, there are going to be a lot of non-physicists in there fulfilling some kind of science requirement. One of the interesting things I learned back in my teaching days that even the ones that are REALLY GOOD at math, acing entrance exams, able to differentiate and integrate trigonometric functions ... well, um, I learned that if I changed one small-but-significant thing, such as identifying the compliment of an angle instead of the angle, they'd get everything all wrong. They often had no intuitive understanding of math, even trigonometry or calculus - they had only mastered the mechanics of performing calculations.

    Eventually I learned to explain things in two styles. One, we might call the intuitive style. I could wave my hands, explain how everything works, explain how the math describes the physical situation, and about 10-30% of my students would understand that. The other style is more of a mechanical style, which we might consider the "sensing" style. I described a kind of problem, then I provided the formulaic means of solving that problem, step by step. This, by the way, was my self-introduction into typology, decades before I learned about MBTI and had words to describe it. These experiences I believe helped me understand typology much faster than I might have otherwise.

    Finally, don't be TOO intimidated by the Feynman quote. As awesome as his Lectures are, they are NOT geared toward freshman physics classes, but rather Caltech Freshman physics classes. (I am familiar with such lectures.) Feynman's classes, from which the lectures derived, didn't only have freshman in them, but lots of graduate students and faculty, as he was already quite the celebrity back in those days. Much of his lectures were geared toward the more advanced part of his audience, as if to say, "Hey, isn't this a clever way to describe this elementary concept?!"

    Feynman was very good at explaining things in laymen's terms (e.g., his Messenger lectures), but even then he was hitting things at an advanced, intuitive level, aimed at intuitive laymen interested in science. What you'll be having to do is a bit more rudimentary and mechanical, for the benefit of your students.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #636
    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If someone needs things explained in words of one syllable, he/she doesn't belong in a physics classroom.

    (As someone about to teach freshman physics, I do hope I am not wrong about this.)
    I was trying to be *too* concise, and I apologize.
    Feynman said, "If you can't explain things to a class of physics freshmen, then you don't really understand it." (He used the example of nuclear spin...which
    example I'm thinking you'll appreciate. ).
    C.S. Lewis said, "If you can't explain your concept in words of one syllable, then you don't really understand it." This is a pithy restatement of an example given by Chesterton in his book Orthodoxy:

    Most of the machinery of modern language is labour-saving machinery; and it saves mental labour very much more than it ought. Scientific phrases are used like scientific wheels and piston-rods to make swifter and smoother yet the path of the comfortable. Long words go rattling by us like long railway trains. We know they are carrying thousands who are too tired or too indolent to walk and think for themselves. It is a good exercise to try for once in a way to express any opinion one holds in words of one syllable. If you say "The social utility of the indeterminate sentence is recognized by all criminologists as a part of our sociological evolution towards a more humane and scientific view of punishment," you can go on talking like that for hours with hardly a movement of the gray matter inside your skull. But if you begin "I wish Jones to go to gaol and Brown to say when Jones shall come out," you will discover, with a thrill of horror, that you are obliged to think. The long words are not the hard words, it is the short words that are hard. [...]

    But these long comfortable words that save modern people the toil of reasoning have one particular aspect in which they are especially ruinous and confusing. This difficulty occurs when the same long word is used in different connections to mean quite different things. Thus, to take a well-known instance, the word "idealist" has one meaning as a piece of philosophy and quite another as a piece of moral rhetoric. In the same way the scientific materialists have had just reason to complain of people mixing up "materialist" as a term of cosmology with "materialist" as a moral taunt. So, to take a cheaper instance, the man who hates "progressives" in London always calls himself a "progressive" in South Africa.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  7. #637
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You're both right, though you seem to be misunderstanding the quote(s). Lewis said "words of one syllable", which is not as applicable to physics as most other topics. Also, Lewis was using a bit of hyperbole, as it is nigh impossible to say anything with words of one syllable.
    Yes, I see now - as @grey_beard acknowledged, he was being "too concise". I convolved the two quotes, being relatively unfamiliar with the works of Lewis. I have read some of Feynman, but have found my own preferred texts over the years that made the difference to my personal understanding of this topic or that. What I have read of and by Feynman has unfortunately diminished the respect I should feel for his scientific accomplishments by making me aware of what a sexist jerk he was, both in and out of the classroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Feynman was talking about explaining to physics freshmen, not using super-simple words. Heck, in physics, half the problem of teaching physics at that early level are all the technical words that have very specific meanings but also have colloquial meanings (energy, force, work, etc.)
    No kidding. Try explaining to fourth graders why things have color.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So, no you don't need to use small words, but as a freshman physics class, there are going to be a lot of non-physicists in there fulfilling some kind of science requirement. One of the interesting things I learned back in my teaching days that even the ones that are REALLY GOOD at math, acing entrance exams, able to differentiate and integrate trigonometric functions ... well, um, I learned that if I changed one small-but-significant thing, such as identifying the compliment of an angle instead of the angle, they'd get everything all wrong. They often had no intuitive understanding of math, even trigonometry or calculus - they had only mastered the mechanics of performing calculations.

    Eventually I learned to explain things in two styles. One, we might call the intuitive style. I could wave my hands, explain how everything works, explain how the math describes the physical situation, and about 10-30% of my students would understand that. The other style is more of a mechanical style, which we might consider the "sensing" style. I described a kind of problem, then I provided the formulaic means of solving that problem, step by step. This, by the way, was my self-introduction into typology, decades before I learned about MBTI and had words to describe it. These experiences I believe helped me understand typology much faster than I might have otherwise.
    My class will be all physics and engineering majors this time. (Last time it was health professions.) I try, as with the fourth graders, to make them give me the answer. This way (1) they are more likely to appreciate and retain it; and (2) I get more insight as the instructor as to how they reason through things.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Finally, don't be TOO intimidated by the Feynman quote.
    Not to worry - no chance of that.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  8. #638
    Suave y Fuerte Array BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Oh, dear. You guys have hit upon a touchy subject for me. See, as ridiculously inconsistent and contradictory as it is, I love the English language. I love words. They can be so beautiful and expressive. And I hate this current PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocabulary to make things easier for the masses to understand. Like rewriting classic literature. Come on. It's not going to kill people to look up some new words. It's good exercise for the brain.

    You might be saying, "What the hell, BadOctopus? You're an INTJ. You value being succinct and to-the-point." And that's true. It annoys me when people use a hundred words to say something that could have been said in ten. But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words.

    Sigh. Okay, I'm done ranting. Just don't get me started on No Fear Shakespeare.
    WOOP WOOP WOOP
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  9. #639
    Senior Member Array Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Oh, dear. You guys have hit upon a touchy subject for me. See, as ridiculously inconsistent and contradictory as it is, I love the English language. I love words. They can be so beautiful and expressive. And I hate this current PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocabulary to make things easier for the masses to understand. Like rewriting classic literature. Come on. It's not going to kill people to look up some new words. It's good exercise for the brain.

    You might be saying, "What the hell, BadOctopus? You're an INTJ. You value being succinct and to-the-point." And that's true. It annoys me when people use a hundred words to say something that could have been said in ten. But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words.

    Sigh. Okay, I'm done ranting. Just don't get me started on No Fear Shakespeare.
    Bad Octopus, I really liked your rant. You only spoke what I so often think concerning language and vocabulary. Also, I share the distaste for using a hundred words for what could be said in ten. I think a part of being a good writer is learning to get the most bang for your buck vocabulary-wise. Hence, I agree with, "But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words."

    Touching on Lewis, @grey_beard and I have spoken of him before. No single writer has influenced my thinking more and while our writing styles are far apart, separated by culture and years, our ways of seeing, of thinking, are not. I connect with Lewis. If there were any way possible (which I know there is not) to have a conversation with an author from the past, he'd be my first choice."

    @Coriolis haha...I have tried to explain why things have color to fourth graders, then I got sent to work with first graders and they have to be taught why things have color, too. It took me three years of actually being in a classroom to learn how to communicate with six year olds, but I'm pretty good at it now. The only thing I worry about is that I may now talk to adults like they're six year olds.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

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    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Oh, dear. You guys have hit upon a touchy subject for me. See, as ridiculously inconsistent and contradictory as it is, I love the English language. I love words. They can be so beautiful and expressive. And I hate this current PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocabulary to make things easier for the masses to understand. Like rewriting classic literature. Come on. It's not going to kill people to look up some new words. It's good exercise for the brain.

    You might be saying, "What the hell, BadOctopus? You're an INTJ. You value being succinct and to-the-point." And that's true. It annoys me when people use a hundred words to say something that could have been said in ten. But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words.

    Sigh. Okay, I'm done ranting. Just don't get me started on No Fear Shakespeare.
    Whew, what a thread. (Sighs.) OK, I'll bite.

    @BadOctopus, I agree x100 (ok, more than that; not geometrically, but exponentiated) on the PC, Newspeak trend of dumbing down our vocab to make things easier for the masses to understand. To quote Lewis again (from Screwtape Proposes a Toast)

    a boy who would be capable of tackling Aeschylus or Dante sits listening to his coeval's attempts to spell out 'A Cat Sat On A Mat'.

    Now, don't get me wrong: I am not being elitist: rather, I think that MANY of the children who are busy attempting to spell out 'A Cat Sat On A Mat'
    are being shortchanged by educators, and would be capable of achieving far more, and assimilating far more, than they are commonly given credit for.

    "Another little portion of the human heritage has been quietly taken from them before they were old enough to understand."

    An example of this was in my middle school (8th - 9th grade US) where the so-called "low achieving children" were exposed to -- not literal Shakespeare,
    but a redacted one: while I consider this in some ways an abomination akin to colorizing of Gone with the Wind, still -- the kids ate it up, as much
    as they could get: they *knew* Shakespeare was good stuff, and being told it was not "too good for *THEM*" was a tremendous inspiration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Bad Octopus, I really liked your rant. You only spoke what I so often think concerning language and vocabulary. Also, I share the distaste for using a hundred words for what could be said in ten. I think a part of being a good writer is learning to get the most bang for your buck vocabulary-wise. Hence, I agree with, "But that's why having a good vocabulary is important. The more words you have in your arsenal, the easier it will be to express your thoughts clearly and concisely, without a lot of wasted words."

    Touching on Lewis, @grey_beard and I have spoken of him before. No single writer has influenced my thinking more and while our writing styles are far apart, separated by culture and years, our ways of seeing, of thinking, are not. I connect with Lewis. If there were anyway possible (which I know there is not) to have a conversation with an author from the past, he'd be my first choice."
    @Ene -- while I agree I'd *love* to talk to Lewis, there is a small slew of others I'd include at just a small step below him:
    G.K. Chesterton, Hilaire Belloc, P.G. Wodehouse...
    and Dick Feynman and Newton and Einstein and Niels Bohr (the latter of whom, by way of returning to the point *and* acting as segue) said:

    Never express yourself more clearly than you can think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @Coriolis haha...I have tried to explain why things have color to fourth graders, then I got sent to work with first graders and they have to be taught why things have color, too. It took me three years of actually being in a classroom to learn how to communicate with six year olds, but I'm pretty good at it now. The only thing I worry about is that I may now talk to adults like they're six year olds.
    @Ene, @Coriolis -- two points. First, as to the bolded. Isn't that the default communication mode of the INTJ anyway?
    Second, communicating with fourth-graders, and moreso to six year olds -- that kind of requires you to break things down into bite-size, first principles chunks.
    Which kind of ties together the quotes of Feynman, Lewis, and Bohr.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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