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  1. #591
    Senior Member cm81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    They seem to be viewed as narcissistic elitists by many people of other types (or perhaps even by some within their own type), and I'm wondering how accurate these perceptions really may be, or why people actually develop them to begin with.
    I have an INTJ (male)in one of my classes. He couldn't be farther from a narcissist if he tried. Sure, he's wired passion hewn beneath his skin; it's extremely hard not to notice that he is always onto something. Always perceiving, constantly thinking. You can see it in his eyes, the way his hands tense as he holds his pen; the rest of him, almost perfectly still. I only discovered his type after having the guy in on our group project. His intensity rendered me helpless. I had to call him out on it, subtly. I don't think anyone else noticed our exchange. After we were able to begin really talking, alone, I've discovered a world of passion and desire to use the pain of his past to the benefit of others. If this is representative of all INTJs.... holy crap! Stoic isn't the word.
    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness, preferring silence to everything that it should be." Edgar Allen Poe

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  2. #592
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PocketFullOf View Post
    I just don't like people who are smug about their intelligence when they aren't as smart as they think they are. Not all INTJs are this way though.
    This is usually the criticism of choice against INTJs. I usually see it leveled by xNTPs. While NTPs aren't strongly Fe types, in their intellectual Ti world, this is how inferior Fe comes out, as a combination of a bit of an intellectual inferiority complex, plus projecting that inferiority complex onto others. (This is just a common negative manifestation of Ti, not a general property of mature Ti types.)

    A general truth of human nature, especially w/r to the younger among us, is that the accusations we level against others tend to be rather accurate accusations to level against ourselves. Why? Because when we're young, we think that everyone else thinks like us, and so when we see behavior we don't understand, we try to imagine what would make US behave that way, rather than imagine how the other person could rationally see the world so that the behavior can be understood. So NTPs believe that they'd behave like INTJs do only if they wanted to show off how smart they are. But that isn't why INTJs behave the way they do.

    That isn't to say that INTJs cannot be cold, arrogant bastards who relish being proven right, but the emotions aren't aimed outward, with a goal of impressing others. They're aimed inward, pleased at mastering a challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by cm81 View Post
    If this is representative of all INTJs.... holy crap! Stoic isn't the word.
    Maybe not all, but certainly a large fraction. We don't share our pain, but as we're nothing if not practical, we USE it. Everything that has ever broken my heart has taught me some kind of wisdom.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #593
    Senior Member cm81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Everything that has ever broken my heart has taught me some kind of wisdom.
    Word.
    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness, preferring silence to everything that it should be." Edgar Allen Poe

    "There's a magic inside,
    Just waiting to burst out.
    There world is a goldmine-
    That will melt tomorrow."M83

  4. #594
    literally your mother PocketFullOf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is usually the criticism of choice against INTJs. I usually see it leveled by xNTPs. While NTPs aren't strongly Fe types, in their intellectual Ti world, this is how inferior Fe comes out, as a combination of a bit of an intellectual inferiority complex, plus projecting that inferiority complex onto others. (This is just a common negative manifestation of Ti, not a general property of mature Ti types.)
    Typical INTJ response, but not a particularly accurate diagnosis. My point is there are a lot of very intelligent people in the world, so being smug about one's own intelligence is quite silly, a better way to get people's respect is to demonstrate one's intelligence rather than acting like you are better than everyone, consequently, it's also far more productive. What many people consider intelligence I find to be vastly over-rated, I would trade being an NTP for being an NFx in a heartbeat. As much as I wish cold brutal logic got to the bottom of the issue, many times it doesn't, finesse is a very under-rated gift I wish both I and more people in general had. I know a lot of very intelligent people, far more intelligent than I that feel this way. So if you want to chalk up criticism to someone else having an inferiority complex, that's fine, but you probably wrong about that as often as you are right. I'd much rather have an intelligent conversation than a snarky argument that goes nowhere and does nothing for anyone involved.
    A general truth of human nature, especially w/r to the younger among us, is that the accusations we level against others tend to be rather accurate accusations to level against ourselves.
    That's true, but it doesn't make those criticisms any less valid. Particularly if we are aware we have these faults and are working on fixing them.

    I also don't particularly care for the human nature argument but thats a different subject for a different thread.
    Why? Because when we're young, we think that everyone else thinks like us, and so when we see behavior we don't understand, we try to imagine what would make US behave that way, rather than imagine how the other person could rationally see the world so that the behavior can be understood.
    Yes, your first paragraph seemed like a pretty good example of that. Fortunately, I've met a lot of different people and I know I'm an overly logical, emotionally out of touch, awkward asexual freak, so while I know what would make me behave like someone else, I know for a fact that's not why they behave that way. Praise da Fe.
    So NTPs believe that they'd behave like INTJs do only if they wanted to show off how smart they are.
    Again, you logic here is based of a false premise which makes your conclusion inaccurate.
    (emphasis my own)
    But that isn't why INTJs behave the way they do.
    I'm sure it's why some of them behave the way they do (actually I know this to be true of one INTJ I know for a fact but that's anecdotal), but again, no one was making blanket statement about why INTJs behave the way they do, and I made that explicit in my post. The thread is asking why people tend not to like INTJs so I answered that in my experience, smugness or the appearance of it, is not a trait I appreciate in others, whether or not their confidence in their abilities is justified. And actually, I know quite a few people who share this opinion with me.
    That isn't to say that INTJs cannot be cold, arrogant bastards who relish being proven right, but the emotions aren't aimed outward, with a goal of impressing others. They're aimed inward, pleased at mastering a challenge.
    While I generally agree with this, it is rather beside the point (at least where this thread is concerned) even if it is true in every single case, which I highly doubt it is.


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  5. #595
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PocketFullOf View Post
    Typical INTJ response, but not a particularly accurate diagnosis.
    I'm relating patterns, not diagnosing, but yes, yours is a typical INTP response.

    My point is there are a lot of very intelligent people in the world, so being smug about one's own intelligence is quite silly,
    My point is the INTJ often isn't "being smug," but that you're reading it that way.

    a better way to get people's respect
    Another misreading of the INTJ. We usually don't have "get people's respect" in mind when we do things.

    is to demonstrate one's intelligence rather than acting like you are better than everyone,
    It's amusing how NTPs are so conscious about people "acting like they're better than everyone". And get so riled up when someone (other than themselves) demonstrates one's intelligence.

    These are the patterns I see, and not just with respect to interactions with INTJs - they act like that around anyone showing some degree of competence and getting an "unfair" degree of attention or credit, including other NTPs.


    consequently, it's also far more productive. What many people consider intelligence I find to be vastly over-rated, I would trade being an NTP for being an NFx in a heartbeat. As much as I wish cold brutal logic got to the bottom of the issue, many times it doesn't, finesse is a very under-rated gift I wish both I and more people in general had. I know a lot of very intelligent people, far more intelligent than I that feel this way.
    I think I would concur with this. I've spent a lifetime figuring out the Fi-Se side of myself. Sometimes not-thinking and not-controlling is the most intelligent way to "control" things.

    So if you want to chalk up criticism to someone else having an inferiority complex, that's fine, but you probably wrong about that as often as you are right. I'd much rather have an intelligent conversation than a snarky argument that goes nowhere and does nothing for anyone involved.
    Note that I'm not criticizing individuals, but describing a pattern I've seen in accusations and particular preoccupations. In these same individuals with a Ti type - and I'm not saying YOU, here, as I've not seen enough of you to have an opinion on the matter - I see actions that indicate that they are very full of their own opinion, and regard others' opinions as "stupid", while making no effort to understand those other opinions. This behavior is a typical negative Ti behavior. No, not all Ti types are like this, but it's a likely negative manifestation that one doesn't see in INFPs or INFJs or INTJs, for example. (The other types have other negative manifestations.)

    The pattern exists, whatever the internal motivation, just as the pattern of INTJ arrogance exists even though it doesn't feel like arrogance to the INTJ.

    That's true, but it doesn't make those criticisms any less valid.
    Actually, yes it does. Not necessarily completely invalid, but if one is projecting, the entire basis of the criticism might be wrong.

    Particularly if we are aware we have these faults and are working on fixing them.
    Again, I wasn't accusing you of having these faults. I was pointing out an overall pattern. I apologize if I came across as accusing you. That was unintended. I generally try to speak in the abstract to make general observations of human nature with respect to typology. I really don't care to use abstraction to make indirect snide comments to make people feel bad about themselves.

    Again, you logic here is based of a false premise which makes your conclusion inaccurate.
    (emphasis my own)
    Not logic. Patterns.

    For instance, just as I know that INTJs generally aren't TRYING to come across as arrogant assholes, I know that NTPs perceive themselves as making legitimate remarks about others' behavior even when those remarks are baseless. More generally, everyone is rational in one's own eyes, especially the really irrational among us. The cool part about typology is being able to point out how each type sees things differently, and perhaps finding out how to cross these cognitive barriers.

    I'm sure it's why some of them behave the way they do (actually I know this to be true of one INTJ I know for a fact but that's anecdotal), but again, no one was making blanket statement about why INTJs behave the way they do, and I made that explicit in my post. The thread is asking why people tend not to like INTJs so I answered that in my experience, smugness or the appearance of it, is not a trait I appreciate in others, whether or not their confidence in their abilities is justified. And actually, I know quite a few people who share this opinion with me.
    Fair enough. Again, I wasn't accusing you so much as using your remarks as a jumping off point for patterns I've observed, answering the OPs question from a different perspective.

    While I generally agree with this, it is rather beside the point (at least where this thread is concerned) even if it is true in every single case, which I highly doubt it is.
    When speaking in generalities, "every single case" is a weak point to make. (INTJs tend to leave off the "in general" or "tend to" or other hemming and hawing words that NTPs stick into their speech so they they don't get caught out on nitpicky technical points, as we tend to believe it's already obvious we are speaking in generalities, and if we meant "always" we would say "always".)

    It is not beside the point, however, as it is the typological reason for the differences. There is an NTP assumption that feelings are directed outward, towards people, towards society, towards making a good impression - this is how the world makes sense to Fe. This assumption is usually false when applied to INTJs with tertiary Fi. There are a lot of things that INTJs do that are simply about achieving goals, getting things done and sharing results, that, because they tend to speak so much more forcefully and directly than NTPs, looks to NTPs as if they're being bombastic, braggadocious, intent upon "showing off" to gain favorable attention. It's not that INTJs never brag (and most people never completely grow out of the need to say "Mommy, look at me, look at me"), but INTJs aren't doing this nearly so often as NTPs seem to think they are.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #596
    literally your mother PocketFullOf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm relating patterns, not diagnosing, but yes, yours is a typical INTP response.
    Saying that someone is criticizing another person because of their own inferiority complex is not relating patterns, its making (largely unfounded assumptions). Interesting that you say INTP though, I've always considered myself an ENTP, and even then with high S.

    My point is the INTJ often isn't "being smug," but that you're reading it that way.
    My point is that it doesn't matter, its the reason some people dislike them, which was the point of the thread. I understand what you are saying, but if you want to know why people react like they do, this is why, and saying that when people do criticize INTJs for their apparent smugness and then you respond that they only think that because they have an inferiority complex, that is smugness, and also probably incorrect.

    Another misreading of the INTJ. We usually don't have "get people's respect" in mind when we do things.
    No, you're mis-reading my post. I'm not saying that that is what you guys crave I'm saying that if you want people to respect you instead of dislike you for being smug, you should try not to appear smug.


    It's amusing how NTPs are so conscious about people "acting like they're better than everyone". And get so riled up when someone (other than themselves) demonstrates one's intelligence.

    These are the patterns I see, and not just with respect to interactions with INTJs - they act like that around anyone showing some degree of competence and getting an "unfair" degree of attention or credit, including other NTPs.
    That has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. I'm sure no one would have a problem if you made a similar thread to this one about INTPs, or ENTPs, I know I wouldn't, I know were not perfect people.

    Also, as an NTP I can assure I am not like that, nor are my other NTP friends, I acknowledge and admire people that are smarter than me, it would be counter-productive not to. I'm not sure why you are trying to turn this conversation on me, I was just responding to the topic of the thread. On the whole I don't have a problem with INTJ's and I don't see why my minor criticism is such a problem for you to accept. But trying to say that NTPs have an inferiority complex in response is sort of proving my point.
    I think I would concur with this. I've spent a lifetime figuring out the Fi-Se side of myself. Sometimes not-thinking and not-controlling is the most intelligent way to "control" things.
    Agreed. I feel like NTs are viewed as some kind of novelty by others. Like an idiot-savant. I have always felt very limited about what I have to offer the world. At least INTJs have Fi, that helps, in a way its a lot better than Fe.

    Note that I'm not criticizing individuals, but describing a pattern I've seen in accusations and particular preoccupations. In these same individuals with a Ti type - and I'm not saying YOU, here, as I've not seen enough of you to have an opinion on the matter - I see actions that indicate that they are very full of their own opinion, and regard others' opinions as "stupid", while making no effort to understand those other opinions. This behavior is a typical negative Ti behavior. No, not all Ti types are like this, but it's a likely negative manifestation that one doesn't see in INFPs or INFJs or INTJs, for example. (The other types have other negative manifestations.)
    Okay, I agree with that, but I still don't see what it has to do with the thread. I think this criticism is easier to level at INTPs than ENTPs anyway, whenever I hear an argument different from mine I strive to understand it and if I like it I adapt my views accordingly, to a fault in fact, especially when it comes to writing persuasive essays for my poli sci major. I've noticed some INTPs can be very stubborn though.

    The pattern exists, whatever the internal motivation, just as the pattern of INTJ arrogance exists even though it doesn't feel like arrogance to the INTJ.
    Yeah I agree, but like you said, NTPs might mistake INTJ's disposition as arrogance, so isn't it possible you are mistaking NTP's being offended by that as an inferiority complex when that isn't in fact what is motivating it? It's hard for me to accept the argument that you know NTPs yet and NTP can't know INTJs.

    Actually, yes it does. Not necessarily completely invalid, but if one is projecting, the entire basis of the criticism might be wrong.
    Just because someone criticizes INTJ's does not mean they are projecting though. That was your initial assumption when I made my first post.

    Again, I wasn't accusing you of having these faults. I was pointing out an overall pattern. I apologize if I came across as accusing you. That was unintended. I generally try to speak in the abstract to make general observations of human nature with respect to typology. I really don't care to use abstraction to make indirect snide comments to make people feel bad about themselves.
    Perhaps you should make a thread about NTPs then, it was a very combative way of responding to me when all I was doing was responding to the thread. NTPs should not have anything to do with this, that is why I initially took it as a thinly veiled personal attack.

    For instance, just as I know that INTJs generally aren't TRYING to come across as arrogant assholes, I know that NTPs perceive themselves as making legitimate remarks about others' behavior even when those remarks are baseless. More generally, everyone is rational in one's own eyes, especially the really irrational among us. The cool part about typology is being able to point out how each type sees things differently, and perhaps finding out how to cross these cognitive barriers.
    I don't think my remark was baseless though, I have seen INTJs treat my ExFx friends this way, and they are offended by it, so its not like NTPs are the only ones that notice it. But then again that is Fe vs Fi I guess. Just as your response wasn't a personal attack, neither was my initial post.

    Fair enough. Again, I wasn't accusing you so much as using your remarks as a jumping off point for patterns I've observed, answering the OPs question from a different perspective.
    That's fair I suppose.

    When speaking in generalities, "every single case" is a weak point to make. (INTJs tend to leave off the "in general" or "tend to" or other hemming and hawing words that NTPs stick into their speech so they they don't get caught out on nitpicky technical points, as we tend to believe it's already obvious we are speaking in generalities, and if we meant "always" we would say "always".)
    I think that's part of the reason why INTJs can come across as smug actually. Those words are important, especially when we don't have the benefit of talking in person.

    It is not beside the point, however, as it is the typological reason for the differences.
    Well it is actually, because as I said, my ExFx friends feel the same way. It comes across as you saying people are wrong to be point out that someone's behavior is offensive to others, and it is not wrong to do that. It is for the benefit of the larger group dynamic to do so actually.
    There is an NTP assumption that feelings are directed outward, towards people, towards society, towards making a good impression - this is how the world makes sense to Fe. This assumption is usually false when applied to INTJs with tertiary Fi. There are a lot of things that INTJs do that are simply about achieving goals, getting things done and sharing results, that, because they tend to speak so much more forcefully and directly than NTPs, looks to NTPs as if they're being bombastic, braggadocious, intent upon "showing off" to gain favorable attention.
    I recognize that, that is why I said not all INTJs are like that, but its a valid criticism for INTJs to take into consideration if they are bothered enough to make a thread asking why people hate them.
    It's not that INTJs never brag (and most people never completely grow out of the need to say "Mommy, look at me, look at me"), but INTJs aren't doing this nearly so often as NTPs seem to think they are.
    That's fair.


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  7. #597
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chthonic View Post
    Preference for internalised knowledge. We don't automatically pick up the lastest and greatest idea's. Each one has to be examined and tested against the internal world view to see if it has validity first. Often comes across as a lack of enthusiasm and resistance to change.
    I do notice you have a tendency to dismiss ideas at first then only later realise their potential, refine them and receive praise for it...

  8. #598
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i don't know about hated, but sometimes they can be disliked for the obstacles that arise that sometimes aren't overcome: unhealthy e5 issues, underdeveloped social skills, poor development overall, fundamentalist j is generally annoying, difficulty in expressing their experience, etc.

    i don't think the people in most social institutions are very well-equipped to understand intj needs very well. and the objective uses for them aren't super positive or developmentally in-tune with their growth process. e1 intjs make way more sense to most people. the e5s aren't as intrinsically "good kids" as Fe infjs. they're not as direct and understandable as istps. it's not as clear what their challenges are as it is for intps, who can sometimes be so impressively great at getting in their own way. they also can seem so out of touch with their bodies, which i feel like totally increases the autism spectrum thing by so much when they are struggling to fully connect to their own experience of reality through the instrument of the body.

    in my own experience as an e5 infj, sometimes it was like i could just hear the endless whine of fans and like my mind had turned to the greyest metal mush. it's a developmental challenge to grow green and really wake up to the kind of organicness of experience, of the body constructing experience through its aliveness. sometimes we just go so long before the color fully starts to shine. infjs are a little more chameleon-y, but with intjs, they sometimes figure out how to allow it to happen on the inside a bit better.
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  10. #600
    Member Belle of Kilronan's Avatar
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    I am pretty new to the forum and haven't got any experience with INTJs to begin with, so I wouldn't know from an objective perspective why they are hated. But if this forum is meant for posting your honest opinions on any subject you want to, I would say that I am pretty appalled at the things I have seen posted about INTJs from other types. And I am continually surprised by how calmly INTJ members took it. I was on PerC for some time, and I have seen similar threads like these for other types' forum. The complete opposite response. Outright denial left and right.

    For example, the "why don't people like esfjs?" forum was filled with people saying "I totally don't know what everywun's (*cough* NTs *cough*) problem is! Esfjs are the bestz!" The posters who were honest were vilified. It was a real eye-opener. In some way, I am glad I learned about other types' perspective on INTJs. It encourages me to not pay attention to what others have to say about me, because it's so far removed from actual reality it's FUCKING scary. Seriously? A predator, because I don't cheese out with every person I meet? Or that I should shirk what comes naturally for me and what makes me feel embodied and become a neutered version of myself in order to appease people who don't care for me, and will never care for me?

    It's like INTJs are not being treated as human beings with actual emotions, we're just these punching bags for people to take their irrational fears and frustrations out on. Anyone who is different is treated the same way. It's disheartening. I realize more and more, that we live in an age where people can sympathize with squirrels better than they empathize with other humans. I pose this rhetorical question for more common types, feeling types especially. If you know an INTJ, and you see their "sociability" as lacking, in what way did you do to help them without forcing them to change and adapt to who you want them to be, or what you think is the ideal? Because if you engage in that kind of soul-destroying behavior, you don't have much empathizing capacity yourself. At least, if someone is abstract and logical, they will be able to do what is right by a person regardless of how they actually feel towards them (think Kant's categorical imperative). Choosing to be automatically more sympathetic towards someone because their eyes squint when they smile and for all these other micromovements enacted in elapsed time displays the worst traits embedded within the human psyche and is the bedrock for society-devolving beliefs like racism, homophobia, sexism and oppression of the weak.

    This forum is making me ill. Leaving.
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