User Tag List

First 456781656 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 1035

  1. #51
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ESI Fi
    Posts
    3,178

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think Se generally is the better learner, in the conventional sense of learning facts, information, or skills. Ni seems not so much to learn as to experience. It has to take in a much larger amount of information, often over a longer time, to "learn" the same thing. On the other hand, it learns at much greater depth than Se, for the time/effort invested, and generally once something is learned/mastered, it is not easily forgotten. Se can learn to knit by mimicing and practicing the motions. Ni must understand what it means "to knit" inside and out. But then it will be understood on some level in its entirety, for all time.
    Could you just stop with the mind reading? enough already! j/k

    You said this beautifully.

    And you are acknowledging the difference in info gathering that I was referring to.

    I believe that this is what typology is useful for....To expand the perspective of an individual, and that includes learning how others operate, and why the other perspective is also useful.

    And that's where the preferences come in.

    I think I just naturally favor seeking knowledge via Ni. It's so ...so.... thorough.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  2. #52
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Yes, I know what you mean INFJ's have an ability to use both, and somehow make the damn combo work. I was really just referring to Ti doms vs Ni doms. They tend to not see each others points as valid. At least not until they have gotten all of the defintions and crap outta the way.

    Ni wants to leave definitions open ended and Ti uses the subjective definition they have of the word. That's what I mean by clash.
    Yeah I've noticed there tends to be confusion. Ni wants higher, more holistic meaning and Ti wants to nitpick every point. Ni responds by saying the contested points don't affect the overall meaning, and Ti wants clarification of the overall meaning, etc. Both Ti and Ni have subjective definitions too, which makes things more potentially confusing. Although I've found I don't generally have too much of a problem with INTP's when discussing theories. Like, I guess the confusion doesn't center around issues that really matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Hmm...I am not sure what you mean. I would love for you to explain this to me. It doesn't bother me (as much) that people make what seem to be absurd statements...even if Zara is right or wrong about calling someone's theory stupid... I encourage feedback, but if I don't get the feedback, I look into it more and try and figure it out myself.

    Unless this is a recurring theme...then I will eventually internalize it and take it personally.

    I guess this may be something I don't know the whole story behind....I don't know Zara's and superunknown's history...?
    You haven't felt like your intelligence was being undermined? I don't know, it just seems so clear to me at the times I've felt this way. And there are a lot of situations which might trigger it, so I can't really say what constitutes it, because there are many ways it could manifest. But that's interesting that it's not an issue for you. Maybe I have less faith in my knowledge than you do, and so I seek external validation?

    Ok, I'll try. Ti users have a subjective way of understanding, which means they create logical structures of information which forms their worldview- similar to Ni. This doesn't get changed with facts as much as faults in the structure. If a conclusion of theirs is false, it means they have an invalid argument or one or more false premises. To change the conclusion requires identifying the false premises and establishing that they are indeed false, or finding the fault in the structure. Saying "wrong" does nothing to that end. Given that our way of understanding is subjective and relies on logic, our behavior and thoughts stem from our rationality, which is related to intelligence. So not allowing us to understand things on our own and form our own opinions independent of external authority, not engaging us in dialogue, undermines our intelligence because it effectively side-steps the reasoning process.

    INTP's, correct me if you experience this differently; this is my experience. Maybe @msg_v2 or @anticlimatic would like to weigh in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Anyways, I think that's what Fi is good because it says "I don't have to tell you crap, I'm comfortable in my stance." <--which I respect

    However it could also lead to it later saying " I am not telling you anything, cause you don't already know that my answer is valid." <--that's taking it personally

    So I would think that leads to the conclusion that it's a combo between Ni + Fi

    Ni assuming, Fi saying screw it I don't have to explain anything.
    I frankly don't understand any of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    also as @Coriolis said...If you explain too much...it could look like you're degrading the person's intellegence by assuming they don't know the material.
    The lack of explanation is really lack of clarification. That's a better way to put it. If someone doesn't understand what you're talking about when you tell them they're wrong, it's only proper to explain why. I can understand, if you have some grand Ni theory which you have just divulged and a Ti person comes along and says it's rubbish why you'd feel an Fi reaction to just say you believe it and that's that- but it's not usually done out of hostility, it's just wanting to learn. See, this would be an example I think the other way around, which would be an XNTJ feeling their intelligence is being undermined.

  3. #53
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ESI Fi
    Posts
    3,178

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Asking for input != self hate. Stubbornly proclaiming ignorance to the world, though, isn't a virtue.
    I see that you not only don't find it a virtue, but you don't find it ironic or funny.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  4. #54
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ESI Fi
    Posts
    3,178

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yeah I've noticed there tends to be confusion. Ni wants higher, more holistic meaning and Ti wants to nitpick every point. Ni responds by saying the contested points don't affect the overall meaning, and Ti wants clarification of the overall meaning, etc. Both Ti and Ni have subjective definitions too, which makes things more potentially confusing.
    Agreed.

    You haven't felt like your intelligence was being undermined? I don't know, it just seems so clear to me at the times I've felt this way. And there are a lot of situations which might trigger it, so I can't really say what constitutes it, because there are many ways it could manifest. But that's interesting that it's not an issue for you. Maybe I have less faith in my knowledge than you do, and so I seek external validation?
    Yea, that is probably Fe. Sounds like it's the right, socially recognized thing to do.

    Which I can understand that.

    Ok, I'll try. Ti users have a subjective way of understanding, which means they create logical structures of information which forms their worldview- similar to Ni. This doesn't get changed with facts as much as faults in the structure. If a conclusion of theirs is false, it means they have an invalid argument or one or more false premises. To change the conclusion requires identifying the false premises and establishing that they are indeed false, or finding the fault in the structure. Saying "wrong" does nothing to that end. Given that our way of understanding is subjective and relies on logic, our behavior and thoughts stem from our rationality, which is related to intelligence. So not allowing us to understand things on our own and form our own opinions independent of external authority, not engaging us in dialogue, undermines our intelligence because it effectively side-steps the reasoning process.
    I appreciate that you have taken the time to expand on this. It's really been a rewarding discussion (at least for me)

    (And I think you should be proclaimed the interpreter of all types! lol )

    The lack of explanation is really lack of clarification. That's a better way to put it. If someone doesn't understand what you're talking about when you tell them they're wrong, it's only proper to explain why. I can understand, if you have some grand Ni theory which you have just divulged and a Ti person comes along and says it's rubbish why you'd feel an Fi reaction to just say you believe it and that's that- but it's not usually done out of hostility, it's just wanting to learn. See, this would be an example I think the other way around, which would be an XNTJ feeling their intelligence is being undermined.
    Yes, I see both sides to this as well.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  5. #55
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I appreciate that you have taken the time to expand on this. It's really been a rewarding discussion (at least for me)

    (And I think you should be proclaimed the interpreter of all types! lol )




    I sort of aim to be one day.

  6. #56
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,023

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So if I understand all of this aright, people hate INTJs because INTJs don't cater to people's functions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Do you know many INTJs IRL? The modest, hardworking, responsible impression is generally correct, but not your idea of our practical abilities.
    Live with one, have worked with two, have dated three, and have one as a sibling. I know my way around the INTJ circuit, including the knee-jerk Fi reaction on display here anytime you try telling them that one of their systemic inabilities is (gasp!) anything less than just another sign of their superiority and awesomeness in every tangible and intangible field of everything. Maybe INTJs can squeak out a few practical tasks when they absolutely have to, but nowhere near as good as SPs...and in my experience dealing with them, they much prefer to delegate such tasks as much as possible. The bulk of the 'work' they do involves endless research into a project, and finding people to help them with it. Attempting to dive in themselves and complete something in a timely fashion typically results in unexpected problems along the way, which infuriates them, and more often than not causes them to give up on the task completely (until they can find someone to do it for them), or just get it to a half-ass 'workable' level of completion. INTJs have remarkable patience in areas of no resistance, but in the presence of a sabotaging reality they just can't deal with it, and shut down-- forever avoiding such tasks in the future, which stunts their ability to problem solve mechanical reality.

  7. #57
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    New name of all threads. ever.

    "Why do people hate themselves?"
    My life long obsession.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That is an interesting/helpful perspective to understand how we can come across.

    I don't agree that it is entirely counterproductive however. I find that when I disagree with someone or think they are wrong, I sometimes cannot explain the why very well. Even if I can, it might not be worth expending the energy. It is useful to understand someone disagrees with you even if they don't provide an explanation. I can understand how this would be frustrating though.
    Thinking on this whenever I disagree with a person without being able to explain coherently the rational reason for doing so, it usually stems from something outside of content in terms of what they said and instead tends to stem from an abstract...impression of that person, for me I suspect this would be an Si to Fe influence of an attitude that does not match up with my experience of a decent or pleasant person, or rather someone with an honest and useful motive that isn't damaging to others.

    Which of course has it's flaws and I've learnt to recognise an automated reaction to triggers of that nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Do you know many INTJs IRL? The modest, hardworking, responsible impression is generally correct, but not your idea of our practical abilities. I have changed tires (in the middle of the southeast expressway in Boston, no less), changed oil, altered clothing, made window blinds, disassembled my piano to remove foreign objects, soldered lighting fixtures, unclogged the sink, and many other similar common tasks. And I am not unusual among my many INTJ compatriots. Don't forget the stereotype about independence and contingency planning: we like to be able to look after ourselves, and be prepared for most anything. There is much truth in it. What we aren't usually good at is asking for help when we need it. (But then the first time I changed a tire, a guy came over and offered to help - when I was just about done. Gee, thanks.)
    Of course! When I possessed her book I remember Lenore Thompson pointing out that INJ's are quite capable of dealing with the physical world as they are bonafide perceivers. They cook, change tyres, take up martial arts, drive fast cars, skydive and so on etc.... just like anyone else could or would.

    What they don't do or rather find it hard to do is retain that response ready almost 'blankness' of Se in their cognition and perception of the world. They always go deeper instead.

    I think quite a lot of INJ's and especially INTJ's like to shore up weaknesses as part of their contingency planning. Usually something involving an improvement in physical prowess, although this is by no means a rule. Although it's worth mentioning that this isn't necessarily anything to do with dealing with inferior influences.
    'Consciousness is not simply a sensory-perceptual affair, a matter of mental imagery, as the contents of our mind would have us believe. It is deeply enmeshed with the brain mechanisms that automatically promote action readiness' - Jaak Panksepp

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #58
    WALMART
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't really see concerns you want addressed.

    I see a lot of myopic, one-sided, poorly-thought-out drivel.

    Something to consider: nothing you say about Ni is an inherent property of Ni. In fact, what you're complaining about isn't Ni at all, you're merely expressing your own problematic relationship with your own Ni. What you're doing is not a sign of wisdom, it's a sign of immaturity. You're still rejecting your shadow. To grow out of this infantile state, you must recognize the limitations and myopia of your ego view (TiSe), and accept its shadow as just as valid a way to approach/view things as your own. Then, you can start working on assimilating your shadow. What you are doing now is very childish.
    So, you're wrong because I know you're wrong. Didn't I already argue this about Ni?

    Okay, the poll I posted. I would argue adamant racism to be a priori reasoning. It is evidenced by the frequency with which Stormfront members test INTJ. Is there some sort of logical inconsistency then regarding Ni and a priori reasoning being the de facto methodology for operation?

    "Introverted intuition apprehends the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind."

    No willful challenge of beliefs here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I understand the first paragragh.

    But I am missing the connection between what makes Se a "better" learner (not really missing it, just making sure I'm not missing anythingand asking for more feedback, which goes for the following sentences as well.)

    Ni and Se gather info in completely different ways.

    I'm also missing the connection that makes Se better than Te. Again two different cognitive funcitons.

    And that doesn't make one better than the other. Maybe the use of one in a certain field compared to another field...

    Are you just stating your opinion, maybe?

    If so my opinion is that Ni - Te combo makes it so that one can tell a three year old something very complex to the point that they'll understand everything.

    An ISFP tried to teach me how to knit and couldn't.

    So what info am I missing?

    Ni can learn from just watching.

    Se has to learn from doing.

    Have I gone down a wrong path in this discussion?
    I'm getting my quotes from this, if you wanna follow along - I realize a lot can be taken out of context with a few selections, so you should read for yourself to get the full scope of what I post.

    Regarding Se - "In so far as he is normal, he is conspicuously adjusted to positive reality -- conspicuously, because his adjustment is always visible. His ideal is the actual; in this respect he is considerate. He has no ideals related to ideas -- he has, therefore, no sort of ground for maintaining a hostile attitude towards the reality of things and facts."

    When I used the term learning, I was referencing the reconciliation between evidence and beliefs I earlier spoke of. From as close to an objective foundation as any of us can hope to achieve, Jung has detailed how Se types reconcile evidence to reason with a greater propensity than any other type, and thusly, how it is not my mere opinion.

    There is more good reading along the same vein of thought around the general section on extraverted rationals and irrationals, and how the former's constant judgement puts them behind irrational types in terms of aligning mentality with evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think Se generally is the better learner, in the conventional sense of learning facts, information, or skills. Ni seems not so much to learn as to experience. It has to take in a much larger amount of information, often over a longer time, to "learn" the same thing. On the other hand, it learns at much greater depth than Se, for the time/effort invested, and generally once something is learned/mastered, it is not easily forgotten. Se can learn to knit by mimicing and practicing the motions. Ni must understand what it means "to knit" on some underlying and fundamental level. But then it will be understood in its entirety, for all time, and the Ni knitter will probably pick up more advanced techniques more quickly.
    lol

    Sigh. Things like this make my challenge of reasoning momentously difficult. I feel like a soldier trapped on a bank of the Somme.

  9. #59
    WALMART
    Guest

  10. #60
    WALMART
    Guest

    Default

    The truth.

Quick Reply Quick Reply

  • :hi:
  • :bye:
  • :)
  • :hug:
  • :happy2:
  • :smile:
  • :wubbie:
  • :D
  • :wink:
  • ;)
  • :newwink:
  • :(
  • :cry:
  • :mad:
  • :dry:
  • :doh:
  • :huh:
  • :shock:
  • :shrug:
  • :blush:

Similar Threads

  1. Why do people hate tradional thoughts and practices?
    By prplchknz in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 05-08-2014, 08:01 PM
  2. Why do people love to hate Kristen Stewart?
    By gromit in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 09-21-2012, 07:20 PM
  3. [INFP] Why do people Hate the idea of being INFP?
    By CrystalViolet in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 95
    Last Post: 05-23-2011, 10:39 PM
  4. [INTJ] Why do people seem to dislike INTJs?
    By RenaiReborn in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 201
    Last Post: 06-03-2009, 08:36 AM
  5. [INTJ] Why do people Pretend to be INTJ's?
    By Dominicus Griswold in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 08-26-2008, 10:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO