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  1. #521
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If I have to change how I operate substantially, however, I am no longer being who I am, but rather trying to be who others want me to be.
    Great! I'm so glad we are back to this. This is what (at least I think ) @Amargith was talking about (correct me if I'm wrong)

    I interpreted what she had said, specifically with the cat/dog analogy as meaning : You don't have to permanently change yourself. You can't change being a cat (cat=you)....but a cat can try to listen, interpret, and maybe try walking in a dog's(dog=other people) shoes long enough for the dog to identify and familiarize with the cat, and accept it as part of the pack. ( I personally added to that analogy that for introverts, they need to be very choosy on what dog(s) they pick...which takes good judgment, which it takes experience to get good judgment) Anyways once you're in, you don't have to walk the dog's shoes anymore...there is trust that's built enough that the dog identifies you as "part of pack"...and not "stranger danger."

    Back to real life people (especially sx doms, I've noticed) you don't have to say the same "hi, how are you?" once you've crossed a certain line....or if you do...you get the real answer not just..."good. how are you"

    The more energy you put out for the right type of people the more you get back.

    At work, I have noticed that once I break the line between co-workers vs.. suedo friend (meaning I've participated in just one outside-of-work activity with them)...the coworker has treated me significantly different....( I work with some E2's they seem to be very give and take...I get a lot more productive work outta the people I'm above if I'm nice to them...In this case please interpret "nice" as- I put a little energy forth when interacting with them. I make sure to look them in the eye cause I know I will get good feedback...then later on in the day...if I ask them to do something they are not all grumbling about it...

    I probably have something to offer everyone, too, but most people won't realize or accept that. Unless I am going to force the issue, that means there is little value to our continued interaction. I would prefer to move on to someone I really can help, or learn from.
    Of course you do.

    Yes and no. Some people, perhaps the feelers you referenced, see courtesy as including a substantial amount of interpersonal give and take. To me that is not courtesy, it is intrusive, inefficient, even nosy. To me, courtesy involves respecting boundaries, avoiding insults, speaking plainly, and getting what you want without it being at someone else's expense.
    Yea, see I think someone that is being nosy is just looking for that sort of attention back. I think a lot of the books on how to get people to like you, mostly start off saying something like "All you have to do is be interested in them. Talk to people about themselves. Lead the conversation, making sure that it stays about them, and they believe that they're the one in charge."

    I would think them coming off as nosy, may just be a dog trying to sniff a cat out. It could be a dog trying to take the first step in saying "I'm interested in you, and this is my language. Lets talk my language cause I want to be liked." I don't even think the cat necessarily has to even try to bark...they can still meow lol...the cat just has to convey to the dog...somehow that it cares.

    So maybe that's how I sort of break it down.....feelers got a language all on their own....I don't think that learning that language is "changing" yourself...I think it's just that --> learning a new language

    And again...we are back to learning...the re-energizer. In the end it can work out to be more efficient cause you now have a whole pack of dogs behind you...

    I emphasize the word can here...because just like I said a couple posts ago...it's about finding the right people...and even when you do that...there's no guarantees....

    So there's risk...yes.

    But when you take risks and fail you grow.

    Growth comes from experiencing things and then learning from those experiences. Growth = life, stagnation = death.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I can probably count on one hand how many times I have tried or learned a new thing by talking to people (like or not) or even being around other people. Even if others are present, I still learn alone. I always do, I always will. You lead with feeling functions, I get that. I don't. Leading with feeling functions would get in the way of actually seeing what I'm looking at, why I'm learning or doing, even if it's another person. I'm in no way saying feeling is completely removed but it's not the primary, no matter what the situation.
    At the very least, I'm concerned with learning my shadows...people project them everywhere...and everyone does it.

    Everywhere you go there are shadows...

    Being around people is the quickest way to find one.

    And of course you can't learn right there in front of people...I can't do that either...

    This stuff is a process.....interacting.....identifying results...analyzing results (usually analyzing alone or one can talk it out with someone that will help you interpret a feeler.)


    I'm not a feeling dom or aux....

    This shit is hard. Maybe I'm making it out to be easier than it looks....

    It took me a long ass time to figure this out. I used to not even acknowledge people that said hi to me or looked at me. Even if I knew someone, I might not even say hello in the halls cause it was unnecessary, redundant, and small talk is just plain aggravating.

    Then real life hit, and I had to work for a living with people (a lot of people) cause I didn't have a rich family...

    So it was either no food/car/shelter or learn the language.

    It's taken me this long just to Realize And Acknowledge That There Even IS Another Language

  2. #522
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Most people?? That's a very negative view of humanity indeed.
    .
    Yes it is. Honestly I find few redeeming features in humanity [as it is currently playing out] in general. I dont deny that my view of humanity is not shared by many, but then does it need to be? I thought a lot better of humanity before I had this career, but this job did teach me what I needed to know. It taught me things that 15yrs of office work had never exposed me to.

    People act differently in closed environments around familiar faces than they do in the wild. When you deal with the general public enmasse you really are exposed to the absolute worst behaviour. Somehow being surrounded by strangers gives people the idea that they are in a no consequences situation, then the real person (not the social programming) emerges. It is only then that you get to see what a person really is. Sadly what most people show themselves to be are tired, powerless children railing against the constriction in their lives. It's been a real eye opener that's for sure.

    I'm not saying people have no redeeming qualities nor brilliance or genius. But what I am saying is that all the inherent talent and beauty in people is lost behind this flailing about in life trying to exert pressure in the least effective way possible, through manipulating people and situations. If we put just half of that energy into cultivating our personal brilliance humanity could be amazing.

    We do not fail in life because we lack the potential, we fail in life because we do not understand where our greatest leverage really lies. We have made this thing called 'society' all important but what is it? It's a systematic approach to programming individuals into conformity. Some are better at that than others, but deep down we all resent the need to hide little bits of ourselves away because others will not approve. Society does not exalt the brilliance of the individual, it exalts the idea of social acceptance. Gaining of that acceptance means being just like others, succeeding just enough but not too well, lest the tall poppies be cut down with a scythe. The social acceptance that gives people their security in life also becomes there constriction, what if they lose the approval and acceptance of others? What if they look foolish by attempting something others do not believe is possible?

    Sure some people transcend all of this and become the breakthrough genius of the day. But I think genius is extremely common, what is rare is the individual willing to risk it all to give birth to that which lies within them.
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  3. #523
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    We do not fail in life because we lack the potential, we fail in life because we do not understand where our greatest leverage really lies. We have made this thing called 'society' all important but what is it? It's a systematic approach to programming individuals into conformity. Some are better at that than others, but deep down we all resent the need to hide little bits of ourselves away because others will not approve. Society does not exalt the brilliance of the individual, it exalts the idea of social acceptance. Gaining of that acceptance means being just like others, succeeding just enough but not too well, lest the tall poppies be cut down with a scythe. The social acceptance that gives people their security in life also becomes there constriction, what if they lose the approval and acceptance of others? What if they look foolish by attempting something others do not believe is possible?
    This is certainly not the absolute truth, but if you understand this worldview, then you understand INTJs.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #524
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is certainly not the absolute truth, but if you understand this worldview, then you understand INTJs.
    Many aeons ago, absolute truth, god, the meaning of life and Atlantis played hide and seek. All hid, except Atlantis. For many ages the seeker searched in vain all the corners of space and time, until, one fateful day, it was forever buried under the oceans of earth. Quivering with anticipation, the others are still hiding. Some say Atlantis was a lonely child and all its friends illusions.

  5. #525
    Butterfly Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Most people?? That's a very negative view of humanity indeed.
    Believe it or not, I share that view. In fact. I know it to be true. I did that kind of job and it does show you the worst part of humanity. I won't deny that this is what people have to contribute, and it is exhausting, annoying, ridiculous and infuriating to have to deal with.

    It is also only one part of the truth. And it is the part that developing Fi focuses on, fights and actively resents for a long time, while you learn to filter and deal with the onslaught of emotional toxic waste tossed your way. Im not sure it his is true for tertiary Fi but it sure seems to be that way. Her job, and her 5 is making it worse as ime 5s are even more likely to retreat from the world when they feel they cannot control it - and human bile is hard to gain any footing on. I too feel the need to crawl back in my cocoon and retreat from human kind when overwhelmed. I suspect INTJs have better external barriers to keep the toxic stuff out, but in order to have those defences, you also lose touch with the good in people. If you cut out the bad...the rest gets severed as well.

    Chances are, that you have gathered an environment that is relatively low in toxicity, and where the toxicity is ...predictable at the very least. That means you get to connect with relatively low risks to you. It would seem that her job has too many hazards on that front and is not the right environment for that.

    I am intrigued though that Fi experiences can overrule Ni skill. Or am I getting this wrong? You guys are so good at seeing what things are made up of, the entire package with Ni...or is it that Ni sees the entire package but leaves it up to Fi in this case - due to the pain- to decide its value and focus? Isn't that normally determined by your Ni though? Coz in this case, it seems to be that Ni gets the directive to work a way around this toxicity, from Fi /rambling

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If I have to change how I operate substantially, however, I am no longer being who I am, but rather trying to be who others want me to be.


    I probably have something to offer everyone, too, but most people won't realize or accept that. Unless I am going to force the issue, that means there is little value to our continued interaction. I would prefer to move on to someone I really can help, or learn from.


    Yes and no. Some people, perhaps the feelers you referenced, see courtesy as including a substantial amount of interpersonal give and take. To me that is not courtesy, it is intrusive, inefficient, even nosy. To me, courtesy involves respecting boundaries, avoiding insults, speaking plainly, and getting what you want without it being at someone else's expense.
    = Developing Fi

    This is the classic struggle that an Fi-user goes through while figuring out how to find the balance between 'me' and 'others'. The classic Fi vs Fe thing. You don't have to give up what you prioritise, all you have to do is use that amazing Te of yours to structure the 'give and take' in a fair way, so that you don't end up feeling taken advantage of and resent them for it, while you can still gain and share the benefits you all have to offer in the most efficient and easily understood way by all involved.

    This kind of talking about it, this kind of awareness in this thread, of airing grievances is in fact Fi trying to figure itself out - and stubbornly holding on to what it doesn't want to lose - and that is fine. It is the way to get to a place where that frustration gets resolved and you find that balance. I also am very much aware that this aint...fun. It's...kind of like homework.

    And in theory we could make this kind of thread about every type out there, discussing their blindspot.

    Coz let's face it - this thread has evolved from 'what do you hate about an intj' to discovering that the Fe blindspot seems to cause most of the aggravation with INTJs. And Im betting that if you made this thread about ENFPs, it would be our Ti blindspot that would come up as the most frustrating aspect to others.

    The discussion you're having is giving you a spotlight into that Fe as well as a way to see how other INTJs view that stuff, and gain insight into how to approach any changes you would like to make. It's giving you a chance to discover that area and see what's what. Again, nobody is telling you to incorporate this information - just...explore it, and explore it again, to really gain an understanding with the information that others gave you about a place you cannot go or see/perceive yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I probably should have more specific, or quoted to give that a context. I'd noticed the exchange between Amargith and Coriolis/WhoCares, and it made me wonder if INTJs who aren't e5 felt as strongly about it as Coriolis and WhoCares. (For example.)

    [Because of course there's going to be a need for independence.]
    5s seem to struggle more with going out in the world, yes, but the way they are doing is very much...the way that all INTJs seem to go about it. 5s just more easily triggered and fatigued by the world, ime.

    Also...and Im not sure it is prudent to bring this up but:

    In my limited - granted, very limited - sample size of female INTJs, they seem to be more sensitive to this.

    And, I'd crudely theorise that that is probably due to the unfair pressure that INTJs women have to put up with from society. The traditional areas in which a woman is supposed to take charge and the way in which she is supposed to...it's dying out but still relevant in our society.

    I see this in a female INTJ in our group. While my INTJ kicks back and relaxes, and realises it aint his job to make our social group function or organise their itinerary, the female INTJ cannot let go. Granted, we as a group suck at organising and she rocks it. And we do appreciate her talent on this but in years before, it was rarely expressed because of the *way* she did it. It was like going to work on a Saturday, meeting up with her. Yes, the house was perfectly cleaned, the cupcakes ( she likes to cook) were amazing and we knew exactly where and when to be and what to do but...it was such work to keep her from snapping at you for doing something wrong in destroying her vision -which she admittedly worked really hard on, that I personally became resentful to having to go. And so did all the others.

    As @uumlau stated, their work often goes unnoticed or unappreciated. She has eased up a lot over the years, but she is still considered the 'difficult' one in the group to get alone with due to her need for control. And yet, she finds herself on my couch at times, crying about how judgemental all the others are of her. And I...understand. It is hard to let go and realise that when it comes to socialising objective goals aren't...well, they aren't the priority for most people, so they'll get annoyed at it or it'll go unappreciated at the very least.

    Meanwhile, my male INTJ *sees* her doing this and rolls his eyes at her, coz he 'gets' this aint the setting for efficiency, nor that it is his job to facilitate it, he is there to relax. He too rolls his eyes when we muck up the organisation within the group, but he refuses to take up that burden coz he has enough on his plate at work. Women however for the longest time were taught that their job was in social situations, in house work, and with feminism - at work. They are to be superwomen. And she certainly suffered from that syndrome.

    In that respect, I'm not surprised that INTJ women feel the need to protect their Fi, their identity even more, coz they're the ones getting labelled a bitch after getting an onslaught of Fe-expectations projected their way by society - because they are female. Hell, I already balk hard at that shit, and I aint even that ambitious,invested in success or focused on logic instead of feeling - I'm just a fellow Fi-user.

    So the urge to push back in defence against anything that would suggest they need to yield even more of their values to society is going to be possibly bigger than with men.

    /crude theory

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Oh no. I'm not like that at all. I like developing one on one connections with people. It's a big part of who I am. (if that's what you mean).
    And here is the other side, the other urge of tertiary Fi. It's about bringing together those two urges in balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Great! I'm so glad we are back to this. This is what (at least I think ) @Amargith was talking about (correct me if I'm wrong)


    You are right.

    Storytime: I have a gang of fur balls at home. One of em is called Arwen - she was hand raised by me due to being on the brink of death at 4 weeks old. Through the amount of treatment and the fact that I was mommy to her, she trusts me implicitly. Her immune system is a mess, she is a walking vet bill but the happiest kitten ever. She sucks at hunting, stays inside near me almost all the time and yes, even has abandonment issues. And she is still a cat in every way

    The other cat I have is called Faith. I called her that coz she needs some faith. She came to me after being raised by a mom who was terrified of people, but realised they were a good source of food. She knows how to hunt, is extremely cautious around anything that could harm her, she has a thick coat, no prior illnesses, a killer immune system and is terrified of people. She came to me at 6 months - well past the point that you can socialise them to people. And yet...she cuddled me at first. At 3 am in the morning, I'd suddenly have a purring kitty on my chest. She has stopped doing that since, considering it not worth the risk anymore. She lives at our place, and sleeps inside only when she freezes her tail off. She'll meow for food, or to check if I'm in the room, so she can plan her escape routes accordingly. And once a year, I have to chase her down like a wild animal to get her the vet care she needs so she can stay healthy.

    I *know* that Faith is likely to die before Arwen. With everything she has going for her compared to Arwen, her life expectancy is still lower. Why? Coz Arwen has me. It pains me but I *know* that one day Faith just won't come home. Or, if I'm lucky, I'll find her on the street, frozen somewhere. She won't come home and ask for help, as Arwen will. And I won't there to help her when it counts the most. It breaks my heart, but that's her choice and there is no way to change her mind. Arwen may be the sickly cat who doesnt know how to take care of herself, but her charm, trust and vulnerability are exactly what will win her the race of life.

    Don't be like Faith.

    Hell, you don't even have to be like Arwen - but the fact is that Arwen is still very much herself, very much a cat - not a dog.



    Let me say one more time, for emphasis:

    I'm not trying to change INTJs into what they are not. I love cats. If i wanted dogs, I'd get a dog *glares at the NTPs*.

    And I'm not even here to tell you how or what to change. All I'm trying to do is shining a spotlight to a place that might be a bit uncomfortable but also has information you might not have noticed. Now that you re aware of that information, it is entirely your choice what you do with it.

    And I do think that the conversation, the way its been going the last few pages, is incredibly useful for all INTJs out there.

    So please. Don't stop
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale

  6. #526
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Yes it is. Honestly I find few redeeming features in humanity [as it is currently playing out] in general. I dont deny that my view of humanity is not shared by many, but then does it need to be? I thought a lot better of humanity before I had this career, but this job did teach me what I needed to know. It taught me things that 15yrs of office work had never exposed me to.

    People act differently in closed environments around familiar faces than they do in the wild. When you deal with the general public enmasse you really are exposed to the absolute worst behaviour. Somehow being surrounded by strangers gives people the idea that they are in a no consequences situation, then the real person (not the social programming) emerges. It is only then that you get to see what a person really is. Sadly what most people show themselves to be are tired, powerless children railing against the constriction in their lives. It's been a real eye opener that's for sure.

    I'm not saying people have no redeeming qualities nor brilliance or genius. But what I am saying is that all the inherent talent and beauty in people is lost behind this flailing about in life trying to exert pressure in the least effective way possible, through manipulating people and situations. If we put just half of that energy into cultivating our personal brilliance humanity could be amazing.

    We do not fail in life because we lack the potential, we fail in life because we do not understand where our greatest leverage really lies. We have made this thing called 'society' all important but what is it? It's a systematic approach to programming individuals into conformity. Some are better at that than others, but deep down we all resent the need to hide little bits of ourselves away because others will not approve. Society does not exalt the brilliance of the individual, it exalts the idea of social acceptance. Gaining of that acceptance means being just like others, succeeding just enough but not too well, lest the tall poppies be cut down with a scythe. The social acceptance that gives people their security in life also becomes there constriction, what if they lose the approval and acceptance of others? What if they look foolish by attempting something others do not believe is possible?

    Sure some people transcend all of this and become the breakthrough genius of the day. But I think genius is extremely common, what is rare is the individual willing to risk it all to give birth to that which lies within them.
    Yea, I decided to make peace with this starting a year ago.

    I knew I had to do something about hating humanity as whole, whether or not I stayed at my job or not.

    Somewhere I came across the phrase "We are all just doing our best with what we have at the time." (Not that I had never been subjected to this phrase before....but I must have revisited it at the right moment.) I hated this phrase. Cause believing that phrase means that people's best .... is shitty. A part of me still thinks they can try just a little bit, to better.

    But then I kind of linked it to typology.

    These other people don't have Te and Ni. They have totally different functions than me. So in a way....Yes, they are doing their best with the functions that they have. I would never want to have Fe, or Si....I'm so glad I don't actually. But that truly is why they're called preferences.

    That took about the whole year. And I still despise a lot of people and interactions. But things like thinking they're only doing their best...helps at the end of the day get over shit. It helps me to have compassion for people. So that the next day, I'm not still infuriated by people....it's a slow kind of transformation. And a year ago I didn't' even know what compassion even meant.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Many aeons ago, absolute truth, god, the meaning of life and Atlantis played hide and seek. All hid, except Atlantis. For many ages the seeker searched in vain all the corners of space and time, until, one fateful day, it was forever buried under the oceans of earth. Quivering with anticipation, the others are still hiding. Some say Atlantis was a lonely child and all its friends illusions.
    I think that Atlantis is much of the missing link between people supposedly being hunter-gatherers for 2 million years, and then all of a sudden (with the same brain structures as before) we start planting things and grow to much greater heights, from nothing in the middle to everything all at once!

  8. #528
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Her job, and her 5 is making it worse as ime 5s are even more likely to retreat from the world when they feel they cannot control it - and human bile is hard to gain any footing on. I too feel the need to crawl back in my cocoon and retreat from human kind when overwhelmed. I suspect INTJs have better external barriers to keep the toxic stuff out, but in order to have those defences, you also lose touch with the good in people. If you cut out the bad...the rest gets severed as well.

    Chances are, that you have gathered an environment that is relatively low in toxicity, and where the toxicity is ...predictable at the very least. That means you get to connect with relatively low risks to you. It would seem that her job has too many hazards on that front and is not the right environment for that.
    This applies to me. I seem to be much more fortunate in that my profession allows me to spend most of my time in settings where my strengths are valued, and my weaknesses don't hold me back too much. Note as I have already mentioned that I do well with the type of professional networking required to collaborate with colleagues and contribute in my field.

    I don't agree that setting up barriers to keep out toxicity also keeps out what is beneficial. It can if one doesn't make those barriers selectively permeable, and I admit, the selection mechanisms aren't perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I am intrigued though that Fi experiences can overrule Ni skill. Or am I getting this wrong? You guys are so good at seeing what things are made up of, the entire package with Ni...or is it that Ni sees the entire package but leaves it up to Fi in this case - due to the pain- to decide its value and focus? Isn't that normally determined by your Ni though? Coz in this case, it seems to be that Ni gets the directive to work a way around this toxicity, from Fi :
    Does it even make sense to speak in terms of "Fi experiences"? Perhaps simplisitically, I thought S was the repository of our direct experiences. More holistically, our experiences would seem to involve/engage all our functions, in short our entire being, since that is how we go about daily living. Ni shows us what "will" be; Fi applies a value judgment to it. Is it good or bad? Does it scare us, excite us, or cause us to worry? Hopefully Te is in the mix as well, comparing that forecast with "objective" evidence which can assuage Fi trepidations, or irrational exuberance, before they run amok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    This kind of talking about it, this kind of awareness in this thread, of airing grievances is in fact Fi trying to figure itself out - and stubbornly holding on to what it doesn't want to lose - and that is fine. It is the way to get to a place where that frustration gets resolved and you find that balance. I also am very much aware that this aint...fun. It's...kind of like homework.
    What is it that Fi doesn't want to lose? I don't understand this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The discussion you're having is giving you a spotlight into that Fe as well as a way to see how other INTJs view that stuff, and gain insight into how to approach any changes you would like to make. It's giving you a chance to discover that area and see what's what. Again, nobody is telling you to incorporate this information - just...explore it, and explore it again, to really gain an understanding with the information that others gave you about a place you cannot go or see/perceive yourself.
    Well, yes - it is much better for a "Why people hate INTJs" thread to evolve into something constructive rather than just an opportunity for other types to vent. I'm all for making constructive changes, even/especially in myself, but I have to be convinced that they will be constructive, and that the benefits will outweigh the costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    In my limited - granted, very limited - sample size of female INTJs, they seem to be more sensitive to this.

    And, I'd crudely theorise that that is probably due to the unfair pressure that INTJs women have to put up with from society. The traditional areas in which a woman is supposed to take charge and the way in which she is supposed to...it's dying out but still relevant in our society.

    [story about female INTJ acquaintance]
    Much as I think type is a stronger innate influence than gender, I agree with you on the influence of social and cultural pressures over the course of a lifetime. That being said, NTs seem on the whole more resistant to this than do other types, and more willing to go their own way. I identify with the INTJ in your story, in that I get very annoyed with disorganized social activities. I don't feel the need to be in control, though; in fact, I much prefer if someone else is. I tend instead to ignore the group and do my own thing until they come to some workable consensus and are ready to act on it (e.g. "we're going to the 8:00 movie"). If the pattern persists, I might not spend as much time with that group. Interestingly my mother was an impeccable hostess and I can organize outstanding social events with the best of them, but this is something I reserve for rare occasions, like a surprise party for my parents' 25th anniversary, or a group vacation. I may still be regarded as "the difficult one" in my group, but not for the same reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Meanwhile, my male INTJ *sees* her doing this and rolls his eyes at her, coz he 'gets' this aint the setting for efficiency, nor that it is his job to facilitate it, he is there to relax. He too rolls his eyes when we muck up the organisation within the group, but he refuses to take up that burden coz he has enough on his plate at work. Women however for the longest time were taught that their job was in social situations, in house work, and with feminism - at work. They are to be superwomen. And she certainly suffered from that syndrome.

    In that respect, I'm not surprised that INTJ women feel the need to protect their Fi, their identity even more, coz they're the ones getting labelled a bitch after getting an onslaught of Fe-expectations projected their way by society - because they are female. Hell, I already balk hard at that shit, and I aint even that ambitious,invested in success or focused on logic instead of feeling - I'm just a fellow Fi-user.
    If people are calling me a bitch, I'm not hearing it. I bother with the social burdens that are important to me as an individual, but have never felt or assumed it is my job to manage social situations - or to do anything, really - just because I am female. If people don't like it, they must have come to terms with it by now, because I don't get any complaints. The Fe expectations I see are more generic, and have already been discussed at length here and elsewhere.

    A final comment: I can understand the hostility that other INTJs like @WhoCares feel regarding the general pool of humanity, I just don't feel it myself for the most part. I do get quite irked at specific people, and sometimes specific groups of people, but just can't put the energy into anything more. I'm sure it matters that I spend most of my time in relatively compatible environments. I tend to have much more of a "live-and-let-live" perspective on other people, and will often even extend it to "live-and-help-live". By this I mean if I can help someone, I generally will. I don't need to be their friend, or even like them, or have much personal interaction, or even "feel" much compassion. For me it is enough to see a need and know I can meet it (and that they will let me do so).
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Found this to be relevant, and I think it also sums up most of what we've talked about in this thread.

    "When Introverted iNtuition dominates the INTJ such that the other functions cannot serve their own purposes, we find the INTJ cutting off information that it needs to consider. If the psyche is presented with information that looks anything like something that Introverted iNtuition has processed in the past, it uses Extraverted Thinking to quickly reject that information. The psyche uses Extraverted Thinking to reject the ideas, rather than analyzing the information within its intuitive framework, and therefore reduces the likelihood that the framework will have to be reshaped and redefined.

    Using Extraverted Thinking in this manner serves the INTJ's psyche in two ways: 1) it saves it the energy that would have to be expended to truly consider new information, and 2) it protects the INTJ's sacred inner world. In either case, it is not ideal. It causes the INTJ to not consider information that may be useful or criticial in developing a real understanding of an issue. It also probably causes the INTJ to come off as too strongly opinionated or snobbish to others."


    "Some INTJs have difficulty fitting into our society. Their problems are generally associated with not knowing (or caring) how they come across to others, with having unreasonable expectations for others' behaviors, and with not putting forth effort to meet others' emotional needs. These issues stem primarily from the common INTJ habit of using Extraverted Thinking to find fault externally, rather than internally, and therefore diminish the importance of the external world, and increase the importance of the INTJ's own internal world. INTJs who recognize that their knowledge and understanding (and therefore general happiness and feeling of success) can be enriched by the synergy of other people's knowledge and understanding will find that they can be committed to their rich internal worlds and still have satisfying relationships with others. In order to accomplish this, the INTJ needs to recognize the importance of extraversion, and develop their highest extraverted function, Extraverted Thinking."

    Source: http://personalitypage.com/html/INTJ_per.html

    That site also has specific suggestions on how to improve/live happily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFlaneur
    just wondering. We are hated. I am hated.

    Most of us seem to be misanthropic and hermits and I feel that to be "I" is not just a simple feature of our personality, it is a defensive mechanism against all that have done us ill and make our lives hell for whatever reason. We see patterns and we see those patterns with conviction and the overwhelming pattern I see is that people are not worth the effort. lets say 95% of people are superfluous at best and the other 5% are true gems, to get to that 5%you still have to go through the other 95% and it just aint worth the effort of sitting on the bank gold-panning day-in-day-out so the introversion just keeps on rising, we break off, do our own thing, consolidate our talents and psyche in isolation and become more and more out of step to the point that we cant go "back".

    Why do people generally hate us? Are we unreadable, are we dark, do we have standards that cant be realised, are we EVIL?? I just dont understand.

    Discuss.
    source - http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=49298 (First Post)

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