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  1. #501
    WhoCares
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    @Amargith,

    I choose to be solo in life because it's easier for me, not because I'm butthurt or too prideful to ask for help. As a socially orientated person you find people enlivening. I find them draining in every possible way. People take more from me than they ever give quite honestly. To watch another person make a hash of a job I can do blindfolded is painful and it takes more time and energy on my part to clean up after them than to just get the job done properly in the first place.

    I work in a people job and meet approx 300 new people a day. I took this job with the idea of developing my people skills and understanding others more. It was a test to see if all that 'you've gotta work with others' advice was really worthwhile. In 6 years of doing this I think I have a pretty good sample set to go from. From what I've experienced most people....

    - Dump their issues on you and try to make them your issues.
    - Fail to plan or provide for themselves and try to make that your issue.
    - Piss and moan like a 5yr old regardless of how old they really are as soon as they don't get their way.
    - Spend prodigious amounts of time trying to take chips off the self esteem of everyone around them so they can feel better about themselves.
    - Recruit others to their cause so they can oust whomever they see as an obstacle to getting their way.
    - Put enormous energy into excuses for why they cannot or should not be doing something.
    - Spend more time doing the above than getting anything useful done.

    I'm actually quite successful at this job, but I dont enjoy it. And I have never had such a low view of humanity as I have now. I have come to the conclusion that in the main my desire to be solo was a good choice and that I am not missing out. In my job the dominant personaity type is a socially orientated, empathic person. And on the whole I find these people put more time and energy into their personal hatreds and petty issues than in getting the job they are paid to do, done. I find it annoying and counter productive.

    Perhaps it would be helpful for society to accept that the solo person isn't a social reject in need of rehabilitation but that it can be a viable personal choice for people who do not receive much benefit from other people's company. I spend all day being diplomatic and understanding and coaxing goodwill out of reluctant individuals. I'm capable of being perfectly lovely and quite charming when it suits me. But I dont have to on here, what I project here is the frustrated and exhausted side of me venting. And this is how I feel most days I've had to endure an overload of other people.

  2. #502
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ti is as much or more anit-Fe than Fi.
    My Ti and Fe get along just fine. There's a lot of people who are both Ti and Fe-- but no one who is both Fe and Fi.

  3. #503
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I'd be curious to hear if there are any INTJs who aren't also e5 who have this thing with needing independence going on.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  4. #504
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Not "contradictory", just opposite sides of the same coin. Being strong in one aspect makes you vulnerable in its opposite. Being strongly self-reliant makes you less able to take advantage of the strengths of working with others. Being very good at working with others means that if you cannot take advantage of others, you've not only lost that strength, but you haven't developed much in the way of self-reliance.

    For my part, while I don't try to be particularly good at working with others, I try to be marginally competent at it, so that when push comes to shove, I'm not totally lost.
    The first paragraph is all true. It just means none of us is going to be good at everything or have time and energy to develop every skill. There is nothing wrong, indeed there seems little alternative, in picking and choosing where one wants to focus one's efforts. The only wrong is expecting everyone to operate the same way.

    I am fairly competent at professional networking, which is why I excepted it from my earlier comments. It is social networking, or just plain socializing that I avoid as unpleasant and unproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I dont think I would have believed someone 2 years ago if they said we are not just dependant or independant creatures, we are interdependent.

    Pure independace is an illusion. Same thing with pure dependance.

    In that way...yes it seems contradicting...but its because we live in a dualistic world. Where things do not soley live without another.

    I think I also believe that if u get all your success accomplished half way through your life and have no one to share it with then we have missed the point. Isnt that losing sight of the big picture?
    You don't have to be a social butterfly to have a SO and a few close friends/family to share your life with. Even most hard-core introverts have that. Nor does one need to deny our fundamental interdependence to have a low opinion for conventional socializing. Just look at how we meet our basic needs. Most people don't grow the bulk of what they eat, or make their own clothing and household goods. We pay for these things using money earned at a job, for an employer; or if self-employed, by providing goods or services to clients. Clearly, a vast array of other people are needed for all this to happen. Little if any of it, however, requires socializing.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #505
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I think I also believe that if u get all your success accomplished half way through your life and have no one to share it with then we have missed the point. Isnt that losing sight of the big picture?
    Thats assuming that there is no joy or satisfaction to be had in suceeding for yourself. It also assumes that others in your life will be pleased for your success.

  6. #506
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Thats assuming that there is no joy or satisfaction to be had in suceeding for yourself. It also assumes that others in your life will be pleased for your success.
    Ah ha, perfect, yes it is assuming those things to be true. However if these things are not what the INTJ cares about in the end...then the reasons "why other people hate INTJ's" are irrelevant.

    That's what I mean when I said a couple pages ago, that it's up to the INTJ, about how much they really care about that stuff. If they don't care, then it doesn't matter why others don't like them, and if it doesn't matter why others don't like them then defining the problems between oneself and others fades away. Which is a personal choice of who you're going to let in or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The first paragraph is all true. It just means none of us is going to be good at everything or have time and energy to develop every skill. There is nothing wrong, indeed there seems little alternative, in picking and choosing where one wants to focus one's efforts. The only wrong is expecting everyone to operate the same way.

    I am fairly competent at professional networking, which is why I excepted it from my earlier comments. It is social networking, or just plain socializing that I avoid as unpleasant and unproductive.
    I will not argue with you that it's unpleasant. It's REALLY unpleasant some of the time, actually.

    But if you are saying it is unproductive, then to me that means that you are not aquiring favorable results from interactions. Which it kinda leads me to believe that you may not be going into each interaction with the goal to gain perspective. Which if that's so, in that case, it's ignoring the fact that every person has something to offer. That's where the productivity comes in. If you can catch a glimpse of what the person's strengths are, and those strengths just so happen to match up to whatever objective you're looking for at the time, then that interaction has been productive.

    Every interaction is productive anyways cause it's a chance to learn. Especially if it's an unpleasant interaction. They are THE most revealing, in that they show you your shadows.


    Clearly, a vast array of other people are needed for all this to happen. Little if any of it, however, requires socializing.
    If people are needed for things to happen, then socializing is expected. I agree, it's not a requirement. However it is expected, and in that way it's sort of like you either play by the rules, or you don't. When you play by the social rules, you can get places MUCH faster than if you didn't. Even as simple as at a line in the supermarket. If that cashier is having a bad day and you make them feel like crap because some social rule wasn't followed, you could end up there forever in that line.

    So I guess, again, it depends on your personal choices. Are you trying to deminsh the amount of unpleasant interactions with people, if so then you have to abide by some social rules. If you are looking to learn something from each interaction then maybe the interactions are not as unpleasant because they're productive. It all depends on where you want your energy to go. I think I lose energy when I have an unpleasant interaction, therefore I picked up some social rules, and try to treat each interaction with the expectation of learning something. And learning energizes me.

  7. #507
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    My Ti and Fe get along just fine.
    That's what your Ti wants to think.



    There's a lot of people who are both Ti and Fe-- but no one who is both Fe and Fi.
    But that isn't an antipathy so much as a different coin.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #508
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    But that isn't an antipathy so much as a different coin.
    Different coins are the root of antipathy...though if this isn't the case for you, I suppose we could just hug until you see things my way.

  9. #509
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Different coins are the root of antipathy...though if this isn't the case for you, I suppose we could just hug until you see things my way.
    Different coins are just crosstalk, not antipathy. The antipathy of which I speak is internal. If you are truly a Ti dom, then Fe strikes when you least expect it, like the Spanish Inquisition. As inferior, Ti doms don't respond to Fe most of the time, but when Fe does get through, it runs the show for a short while.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #510
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Different coins are just crosstalk, not antipathy. The antipathy of which I speak is internal. If you are truly a Ti dom, then Fe strikes when you least expect it, like the Spanish Inquisition. As inferior, Ti doms don't respond to Fe most of the time, but when Fe does get through, it runs the show for a short while.
    Rrrrrreally?

    So you don't find any antipathy, at all, in such stereotypical Feproducts like, say-- emotional manipulation? Appeals to emotion? Guilt tripping? Or are you just more of the 'hate the soldier, pardon the commander' type of individual?

    Yes, the Fesplosion is a thing. It's true. Though that isn't the sum of its function, rather it's an exception; a point in which an imbalance of pressures has forced it into critical mass. Quite often, and more normally, it functions in tandem with Ti, acting as a sort of 'coolant system' to the Ti engine, working to pacify those around us so that Ti can work at optimal performance specs. Run Ti too hard without it, and it will seize up-- and without the pressure regulator of Ti to keep Fe from A-bombing, meltdown is pretty much an eventuality at that point.

    Compare the aspects to inferior Se-- sure, there's the occasional Sesplosion, wherein an inferior bearer will get drunk, go crazy dancing, and engage in reckless visceral sex-- but it also runs constantly in the background, forcing you to seek out accommodating lighting, tolerable ambient noise, and pleasant odors.

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