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  1. #41
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Te can come across as assuming the person they are talking to doesn't know the things they know. This can appear condescending. The fact that you know something doesn't mean other people don't know it too.

    The thing that bothers me the most is lack of explanation. This is supremely arrogant, because you're invalidating the other person's reasoning process and telling them to ignore it. Facts aren't just facts; they need rational structure to tie them together. You can throw fifteen facts together and they won't mean anything without something coherently linking them. If I disagree with you and that's that, you don't have a dialogue, and neither person learns anything. If you disagree with my reasoning and provide no explanation, I have no reason to change my mind. It's counterproductive behavior all around.

    There are a few INTJ's on here I really like, who don't have these tendencies.
    That is an interesting/helpful perspective to understand how we can come across.

    I don't agree that it is entirely counterproductive however. I find that when I disagree with someone or think they are wrong, I sometimes cannot explain the why very well. Even if I can, it might not be worth expending the energy. It is useful to understand someone disagrees with you even if they don't provide an explanation. I can understand how this would be frustrating though.

    Through some probing you might be able to get at the why.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Do you think then that INTP is the type which "hates" (conflicts with) INTJ's the most?

    I know Ti and Te clash quite a bit.
    I tend to get along with INTPs pretty well. I have more problems with EXTJs than XNTPs.

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  2. #42
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I'm not completely fine with stating the obvious. It's tedious and draining

    The pieces are already connected for Ni.
    Agreed, it's like sitting through a lecture of a class I've already taken.


    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Ti and Ni clash. They're practically opposites.

    Whatever one finds relevant...the other finds irrelevant...and visa versa.
    Au contraire; they are very similar and work together wonderfully as dominant and tertiary functions. They can confuse each other though and make theories very difficult to explain. But I think INFJ's and ISTP's would still have an easier time than INTJ's some of the time. Maybe not. INFJ's are nonetheless always willing to facilitate understanding, and are capable of very clear writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    New name of all threads. ever.

    "Why do people hate themselves?"
    Good point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Why does it bug you so?
    It's just really important for some people to have their intelligence respected. Does it not bother you if it seems people don't respect yours? I'm sure it's loosely type related.

  3. #43
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That is an interesting/helpful perspective to understand how we can come across.

    I don't agree that it is entirely counterproductive however. I find that when I disagree with someone or think they are wrong, I sometimes cannot explain the why very well. Even if I can, it might not be worth expending the energy. It is useful to understand someone disagrees with you even if they don't provide an explanation. I can understand how this would be frustrating though.

    Through some probing you might be able to get at the why.
    Thanks for being open minded. You are one of the INTJs on here whom I would classify as easy to get along with. And nice to know the other perspective. From interacting intensely with one INTJ irl I could intuitively get a feel for why he got frustrated; it just seemed like he wasn't really trying some of the time. And after explaining how I experienced things he did make more of an effort. He also had this annoying habit of trying to be vague on purpose to "make people think" as he put it, which I appreciated some of the time, but found really annoying at others.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I tend to get along with INTPs pretty well. I have more problems with EXTJs than XNTPs.
    Interesting. I wonder why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It seems valid to associate causality with the judging functions, though especially Je, since that is what will translate or apply the Ni output in the outside world.
    I don't know many people who have problems with INTJs they know in the real world; as co workers or acquaintances they come off as fairly humble, hardworking, responsible individuals. It's only when you get through their external barriers and chat with them, a process easily facilitated by the internet, that you start to uncover the most bizarre Fi rooted prejudices and opinions which generally tend to boil down to "humanity is stupid and beneath me." Which is an odd piece of hubris considering their actual ability when it comes to practical matters. I think this hypocrisy of the ego is where most disdain for INTJs comes from; this sort of superiority complex, even though they're barely able to do something as simple as change a tire.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Please, when you get a chance, address my concerns. I would like to expand upon what I know.
    I don't really see concerns you want addressed.

    I see a lot of myopic, one-sided, poorly-thought-out drivel.

    Something to consider: nothing you say about Ni is an inherent property of Ni. In fact, what you're complaining about isn't Ni at all, you're merely expressing your own problematic relationship with your own Ni. What you're doing is not a sign of wisdom, it's a sign of immaturity. You're still rejecting your shadow. To grow out of this infantile state, you must recognize the limitations and myopia of your ego view (TiSe), and accept its shadow as just as valid a way to approach/view things as your own. Then, you can start working on assimilating your shadow. What you are doing now is very childish.
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  6. #46
    The Senate Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The secret message in all Ti is real think is group think is best think.
    Except for Snowden, who is a confirmed INTP. Case closed.

    Quite ironic that Snowden isn't a special Fi Snowflake. Why don't you get one of those octopus tattoos everyone is getting for some reason? That should help cheer you up over Snowden being a confirmed INTP.

    I told Barack Obama to veto the law that would give all INTJ men weekly, no-strings attached handjobs by the Hollywood actress of their choice. I love being the reason you can't have nice things.

    Even so, I am glad that Snowden is a confirmed INTP. Even a second-grader could see that.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It is useful to understand someone disagrees with you even if they don't provide an explanation.
    See, I tend to need an explanation. Otherwise, I can't determine if it is worth listening to or not.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
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  8. #48
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I'm probably not using the right word, or at least, there's a better word for it. When I say "ego" I mean the psyche, so if it is "egotistical", its origins are from within - directly contrasted against origins supported by an environment. A priori reasoning has evidence withdrawn from the equation, therefore, introverted intuition is the purest theoretical form of ego regarding personality.



    The thing about this is that if you use your reasoning, almost every type will be at the very least equally capable in this regard, giving INTJ's no real advantage in terms of reconciling beliefs to existence. Even ISFP's would be better learners, with auxiliary Se (Se is better than Te, 'tis true, though they are notably similar in scope). Two exclusions might be xNxP's, with subjectively-oriented functions in both dom and aux slots, but I've only thought about that lightly.
    I understand the first paragragh.

    But I am missing the connection between what makes Se a "better" learner (not really missing it, just making sure I'm not missing anythingand asking for more feedback, which goes for the following sentences as well.)

    Ni and Se gather info in completely different ways.

    I'm also missing the connection that makes Se better than Te. Again two different cognitive funcitons.

    And that doesn't make one better than the other. Maybe the use of one in a certain field compared to another field...

    Are you just stating your opinion, maybe?

    If so my opinion is that Ni - Te combo makes it so that one can tell a three year old something very complex to the point that they'll understand everything.

    An ISFP tried to teach me how to knit and couldn't.

    So what info am I missing?

    Ni can learn from just watching.

    Se has to learn from doing.

    Have I gone down a wrong path in this discussion?


    ********

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Au contraire; they are very similar and work together wonderfully as dominant and tertiary functions. They can confuse each other though and make theories very difficult to explain. But I think INFJ's and ISTP's would still have an easier time than INTJ's some of the time. Maybe not. INFJ's are nonetheless always willing to facilitate understanding, and are capable of very clear writing.

    It's just really important for some people to have their intelligence respected. Does it not bother you if it seems people don't respect yours? I'm sure it's loosely type related.
    Yes, I know what you mean INFJ's have an ability to use both, and somehow make the damn combo work. I was really just referring to Ti doms vs Ni doms. They tend to not see each others points as valid. At least not until they have gotten all of the defintions and crap outta the way.

    Ni wants to leave definitions open ended and Ti uses the subjective definition they have of the word. That's what I mean by clash.

    Hmm...I am not sure what you mean. I would love for you to explain this to me. It doesn't bother me (as much) that people make what seem to be absurd statements...even if Zara is right or wrong about calling someone's theory stupid... I encourage feedback, but if I don't get the feedback, I look into it more and try and figure it out myself.

    Unless this is a recurring theme...then I will eventually internalize it and take it personally.

    I guess this may be something I don't know the whole story behind....I don't know Zara's and superunknown's history...?

    ***

    Anyways, I think that's what Fi is good because it says "I don't have to tell you crap, I'm comfortable in my stance." <--which I respect

    However it could also lead to it later saying " I am not telling you anything, cause you don't already know that my answer is valid." <--that's taking it personally

    So I would think that leads to the conclusion that it's a combo between Ni + Fi

    Ni assuming, Fi saying screw it I don't have to explain anything.

    also as @Coriolis said...If you explain too much...it could look like you're degrading the person's intellegence by assuming they don't know the material.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  9. #49
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    I don't know many people who have problems with INTJs they know in the real world; as co workers or acquaintances they come off as fairly humble, hardworking, responsible individuals. It's only when you get through their external barriers and chat with them, a process easily facilitated by the internet, that you start to uncover the most bizarre Fi rooted prejudices and opinions which generally tend to boil down to "humanity is stupid and beneath me." Which is an odd piece of hubris considering their actual ability when it comes to practical matters. I think this hypocrisy of the ego is where most disdain for INTJs comes from; this sort of superiority complex, even though they're barely able to do something as simple as change a tire.
    Do you know many INTJs IRL? The modest, hardworking, responsible impression is generally correct, but not your idea of our practical abilities. I have changed tires (in the middle of the southeast expressway in Boston, no less), changed oil, altered clothing, made window blinds, disassembled my piano to remove foreign objects, soldered lighting fixtures, unclogged the sink, and many other similar common tasks. And I am not unusual among my many INTJ compatriots. Don't forget the stereotype about independence and contingency planning: we like to be able to look after ourselves, and be prepared for most anything. There is much truth in it. What we aren't usually good at is asking for help when we need it. (But then the first time I changed a tire, a guy came over and offered to help - when I was just about done. Gee, thanks.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #50
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    But I am missing the connection between what makes Se a "better" learner (not really missing it, just making sure I'm not missing anythingand asking for more feedback, which goes for the following sentences as well.)

    Ni and Se gather info in completely different ways.

    I'm also missing the connection that makes Se better than Te. Again two different cognitive funcitons.

    And that doesn't make one better than the other. Maybe the use of one in a certain field compared to another field...
    I think Se generally is the better learner, in the conventional sense of learning facts, information, or skills. Ni seems not so much to learn as to experience. It has to take in a much larger amount of information, often over a longer time, to "learn" the same thing. On the other hand, it learns at much greater depth than Se, for the time/effort invested, and generally once something is learned/mastered, it is not easily forgotten. Se can learn to knit by mimicing and practicing the motions. Ni must understand what it means "to knit" on some underlying and fundamental level. But then it will be understood in its entirety, for all time, and the Ni knitter will probably pick up more advanced techniques more quickly.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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