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Thread: Why do people hate INTJs?

  1. #471
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    Oh boy, we just got a whole cluster-fuck of empirical data validating the massive popularity of INTJs on internet searches - I know you folks love that stuff!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Oh boy, we just got a whole cluster-fuck of empirical data validating the massive popularity of INTJs on internet searches - I know you folks love that stuff!
    You would have to be an absolute moron to not understand the appeal of "INTJ's".

    Jung himself stated Ni types were abstracted straight from psychological thrillers.

    They are monoliths; 'one-sided demonstrations of nature'.

  3. #473
    Senior Member Array Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Jag is an ESTJ.
    My ISTJ father wishes that were true.
    The east and the west are mine, the north and the south are mine. All seems beautiful to me.
    — Walt Whitman

  4. #474
    Make 2017 a good one! Array Amargith's Avatar
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    As requested and promised:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How far does simple courtesy go in fostering that rapport, or being part of the group? By that I mean the usual things like being on time, keeping promises, avoiding insulting language, looking people in the eye and hearing them out? None of this requires that we divulge information ourselves, though we often do when it makes sense. It seems when people learn that we mean what we say and we keep our commitments, that should go far in making us seem less threatening. Of course, they have to get to know us at least a little to develop this track record. A first impression might go more as you described.
    That stuff works well in day to day routines, especially on the job. Which is why Te rules business life. The thing is that in order to trust someone at least a little, you need to get to know that person a little. That is especially true if that person is...somewhat... let's call it unconventional? True enough, your predictability due to your J mitigates that feeling at least somewhat, especially over time.

    In a one on one conversation, having someone shield them so much, especially if it is a social engagement, instead of just an exchange of information to do you job, it ...well, it can be downright unproductive for the other party to have that interaction as it kind of defeats the purpose of socialising

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Amargith

    Good posts, all around. You've been remarkably clear, here.

    I really like this part:


    One interesting thing I've noticed about myself as an INTJ is that the ways I help people are effectively invisible to them. They don't see the planning that kept things from going awry at dozens of different stages. It applies to both social and work situations, but it's a bit easier to describe with respect to work. I have occasionally found myself entering work situations that were remarkably discombobulated, or just barely recovering from discombobulation. Given a short time, I can see most everything that is going wrong.

    What is wrong isn't that people don't like each other or don't trust each other or fail to affirm each other and provide social comfort. If anything, they trust each other too much, and assume that the overall work system that they've been using for the past decade works fine as is. Now, unlike your stereotypical immature INTJ, I don't just barge in and tell people to do things differently, and I know I need to gradually earn trust. Once I have that trust, I replace the broken processes (which were fine for the business environment 10 years ago, so they aren't broken so much as needing to be adapted) with working processes (whether pieces of code, actual practices, business procedures, workflows, design architectures, etc.). But even as I do all of this, I become agonizingly aware how no one around me is seeing any of these broken processes. And when I fix them, they take it for granted that it works this smoothly all the time. All the effort I put in is invisible, because I'm working on invisible things, the connections between "this" and "that", which I guess are invisible because people pay attention to "this" or "that, without even seeing the intrinsic connections between the two that, if one of them fails, the "this" and "that" both break. Granted, this is kind of an idealization of what I do, but the main takeaway here should be that what I do, what I see, is invisible to others. For more immature INTJs, they see the same things, wondering why everyone is so concerned with "being a team" and getting along, "putting out fires" instead of removing the fire hazards. How do you even TALK to people who can't see the obvious? Most anything we say is received with the same kind of primal fear you describe, as if we had said, "I see dead people."

    In a more humorous vein, INTJs see the world like this:


    We aren't trying to use you as cannon fodder, we're trying to save you from happily volunteering to be cannon fodder.
    Amen to the bolded. And that is one of the reasons that I actually have no problems trusting INTJs and admire them greatly. I see the work, effort and sweat they put into their community and the ones they love. And yes, you're right, few people actually notice the stuff you guys do. This is partly due to the fact that you move in the shadows moreso than say ENTJs, to stay out of the spotlight, away from high risk positions - which inevitably happens when people do recognise your skills (my INTJ has cursed about this more than once and groomed someone to take over from him once he was done 'fixing' shit, to step into that limelight so he could step back again)

    And partly due to the fact that you make it seem so effortlessly and easy. And then there is the part where you do this crap alone. You don't ask for help, you don't involve anyone else, you don't talk or brag about it...it's...truly like watching a ninja at work

    Once you know how to spot them at work though...it's like watching an artist paint a masterpiece
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★

  5. #475
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    That stuff works well in day to day routines, especially on the job. Which is why Te rules business life. The thing is that in order to trust someone at least a little, you need to get to know that person a little. That is especially true if that person is...somewhat... let's call it unconventional? True enough, your predictability due to your J mitigates that feeling at least somewhat, especially over time.

    In a one on one conversation, having someone shield them so much, especially if it is a social engagement, instead of just an exchange of information to do you job, it ...well, it can be downright unproductive for the other party to have that interaction as it kind of defeats the purpose of socialising
    What IS the purpose of socializing?? I suppose that is part of the problem. I don't really have a social mode. I approach nearly all new contacts in a sort of professional mode. If I continue to interact with someone, eventually (measured in weeks or months) it will become more friend-like, but this usually happens through one-on-one or very small group interaction. I don't really expect people to seek me out socially. In my circles of acquaintanceship, people know who I am and how to find me if they need something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And partly due to the fact that you make it seem so effortlessly and easy. And then there is the part where

    you do this crap alone. fewer distractions, so more efficient

    You don't ask for help, it's rarely needed

    you don't involve anyone else, that improves effectiveness and saves time

    you don't talk or brag about it no need

    ...it's...truly like watching a ninja at work play
    I like this.
    A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
    A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door, and a word that shall echo for evermore!
    For, borne on the night-wind of the Past, through all our history, to the last,
    In the hour of darkness and peril and need, the people will waken and listen to hear

    -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

  6. #476
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    As requested and promised:
    Thanks for rejoining the thread!

    And partly due to the fact that you make it seem so effortlessly and easy. And then there is the part where you do this crap alone. You don't ask for help, you don't involve anyone else, you don't talk or brag about it...it's...truly like watching a ninja at work
    Or more like a Zen Master.

    There are times when I read the Tao Te Ching, and I have to swear that he was a very spiritual INTJ:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lao Tzu
    9

    Fill your bowl to the brim
    and it will spill.
    Keep sharpening your knife
    and it will blunt.
    Chase after money and security
    and your heart will never unclench.
    Care about people's approval
    and you will be their prisoner.

    Do your work, then step back.
    The only path to serenity.
    One thing that is automatically true about INTJs: we do NOT care about people's approval. (Not that we cannot be swayed by it, but it generally doesn't motivate INTJs. More particularly, people's DISapproval does not dissuade INTJs.)

    Once you know how to spot them at work though...it's like watching an artist paint a masterpiece
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #477
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What IS the purpose of socializing?? I suppose that is part of the problem. I don't really have a social mode. I approach nearly all new contacts in a sort of professional mode. If I continue to interact with someone, eventually (measured in weeks or months) it will become more friend-like, but this usually happens through one-on-one or very small group interaction. I don't really expect people to seek me out socially. In my circles of acquaintanceship, people know who I am and how to find me if they need something.
    The purpose is to be proactive in developing human contacts. INTJs in general tend to only seek out a very few friends. The problem with this is that life is very changeable, friends change, friends move, friends develop other interests, and so on. It very much helps, in my opinion. to socialize in order to develop friendships that you never would have thought to develop. Think of it is Se terms: opportunities abound, but if you just stick with particular people, all of those opportunities are lost.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #478
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The purpose is to be proactive in developing human contacts. INTJs in general tend to only seek out a very few friends. The problem with this is that life is very changeable, friends change, friends move, friends develop other interests, and so on. It very much helps, in my opinion. to socialize in order to develop friendships that you never would have thought to develop. Think of it is Se terms: opportunities abound, but if you just stick with particular people, all of those opportunities are lost.
    I don't disagree in principle, and it's not that I don't have or want friends. I think I just prefer to meet the friends I do have through professional and pseudo-professional interactions - work, volunteer activities, music performance, even business relationships. I work together with someone, which automatically gives us one thing in common and a good reason for interacting, whether we become friends or not. Socializing for its own sake is not enjoyable, often trying, and brings me into contact with more quantities of people than quality.
    A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
    A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door, and a word that shall echo for evermore!
    For, borne on the night-wind of the Past, through all our history, to the last,
    In the hour of darkness and peril and need, the people will waken and listen to hear

    -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

  9. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The purpose is to be proactive in developing human contacts. INTJs in general tend to only seek out a very few friends. The problem with this is that life is very changeable, friends change, friends move, friends develop other interests, and so on. It very much helps, in my opinion. to socialize in order to develop friendships that you never would have thought to develop. Think of it is Se terms: opportunities abound, but if you just stick with particular people, all of those opportunities are lost.
    The differences between your two posts look like the difference between two SP doms having a different aux.

  10. #480
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't disagree in principle, and it's not that I don't have or want friends. I think I just prefer to meet the friends I do have through professional and pseudo-professional interactions - work, volunteer activities, music performance, even business relationships. I work together with someone, which automatically gives us one thing in common and a good reason for interacting, whether we become friends or not. Socializing for its own sake is not enjoyable, often trying, and brings me into contact with more quantities of people than quality.
    Let me put it this way ...

    Sometimes "unknown unknowns" are far more positive than your "known knowns".
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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