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Thread: Why do people hate INTJs?

  1. #441
    ¤ Array Zarathustra's Avatar
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    ^ wonder if that will be censored too...

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  2. #442
    How's that workin for ya? Array Urarienev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is the essence of communication. Interestingly, it isn't even about "making oneself understood", but rather about listening. If you listen well, you make it much easier for others to listen to you. This listening is one of those "Fi lessons" that INTJs need to learn.
    Can you elaborate?

  3. #443
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Can you elaborate?
    One of the ironies of human communication is that it is almost impossible to tell people what you think without listening to what they have to say, first. All conversations require listening. If people just repeat the same things at each other (perhaps using different words each time) there is no conversation. As my grandmother put it, "An argument is two people sharing their ignorance." The only way to have a conversation is to really listen to what the other person has to say. It might be true, it might be false, it might be confused, it might have some insights in certain degrees, while demonstrating ignorance in others.

    Via listening, you learn what it is that you might need to say in order to convey your real point. Via listening, you try to learn from a discussion, rather than "win" an argument. Via listening, and demonstrating that you hear the other person's point of view, they will tend to pay you the same courtesy and listen to you.

    According to Dario Nardi, the Fi types, especially Fi doms, are the best at listening. Thus, to "develop Fi", learn to listen.

    Edited to add:
    W/r to prior comments about "humility" and the like, listening is the path for Te types to get there.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #444
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    There's an argument which could be constructed, with topics such as The Horrors of Public Education, where listening too much may limit expansion, whether it's within the mind or the world. (I don't expect anyone to browse that entire link, but I'm covering the main points below):

    1. When we follow the herd, we may stop thinking for ourselves, and develop worldviews largely similar to other members within the herd. This isn't good for innovation, and limits the search for new horizons.
    2. Some things others present to us may be misleading, or take our focus away from the higher vantage points of awareness, and down into the cages of conformity.
    3. Just because the old precedents may appear to work doesn't mean that they can't be altered to allow for new and improved developments.
    4. Taking in too much information all at once rather than withdrawing into the mind can create interference, disrupting the intake of what we actually need to know, or at least what we want to know.
    5. Many people who command others don't do it for the other person's knowledge and well-being, but rather to argue for their own advantages.

    The list could go on much longer than that, but the idea of arguing against external feedback in order to get more feedback is still awesome I think!

    So probably, open-mindedness consists not only in listening to other points of view, but in questioning them as well, among other things. Through this process, we can let of go of pieces which aren't good for our constructions, and integrate the pieces that are good to better build up towards more perfected models.

    It would be interesting if what I described above has connections with Typology, although I'm not experienced nor insightful enough yet to see patterns of these sorts.

  5. #445
    Senior Member Array anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    ^^ ^^^ I dealt with this guy in four lines, but someone , as yet unnamed, decided to delete it, and not say a word about it, even when asked.

    That's a whole lot of wasted breath for:

    1) clearly you're only describing shitty people, shitty aspects of people, or your shitty interpretations of people, who (might) happen to be INTJ (albeit in a rather funny, and even partially accurate kinda way)

    and

    2) most everything you're saying here is clearly derived from little more than your own shadow SFJ judgments, and is thus not even close to objective (hence partial)

    But hey, if you want to unnecessarily delete a non-hostile post, under the inaccurate judgment that it is, in order to waste your breath, you're the mod.

    I'm with ya, bother. Damn the man!!

  6. #446
    Senior Member Array anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Personally, I don't need other people to "understand me" or "understand INTJs" in general. I believe highlander is bringing up the point about your lack of understanding of INTJs is that while many of your observations are apt, there are key aspects to them that, in our eyes, are untrue or otherwise incomplete.
    Te vs Fi again, defaulting to whichever makes you seem superior to others, because that's always the one goal that transcends the dueling judging functions. Te needs people to understand you, because that's how things get accomplished-- while Fi could care less. Everyone is conflicted internally to some degree, but I wonder if it's because your judging functions are so close together that you're able to leap-frog so easily from one to the other, depending on the overreaching goal (power). Note I'm not disagreeing with you, I think you just have a misunderstanding on how causality is assigned to the functions regarding action; particularly the distinction between judging and perceiving functions.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Interestingly, it isn't even about "making oneself understood", but rather about listening. If you listen well, you make it much easier for others to listen to you. This listening is one of those "Fi lessons" that INTJs need to learn.
    By "listening" you mean..."perceiving?" Like, an INTJs dominant function (Ni)? Like, the thing they do already where they just stare at everyone like lab rats? I'm not sure more of the same is going to help towards generating likability, but doubtless you have to find your own way. I'd focus more on the judging aspect, and tweaking that. Especially since it's extroverted, Te more than any of the INTJ's other functions can help in recognizing the importance of other people, and therefore the importance of maintaining good terms with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    No, it's not an "Fi reaction." It's Ni.
    I think you confuse these two functions, somehow. You can't really blame much on Ni, since it's irrational, and doesn't really make any actual determinations-- it just manages an odd type of image-based network of concepts, which are linked to one another through obscure means (to contrast with Si, which manages a similar network-- only Si images are linked in an explicitly linear sensory means). Determinations on that data; yes, no; true, false; valid, invalid-- all come from the judging functions. Fi is based more on values than anything else, and therefore can't quite explain itself as well as Te can, when it comes to the decisions it makes-- therefore, a lot of the time, INTJs will make Fi-value based judgements, and then attempt to explain/justify them with Te. I'm sure they're not alone in this practice, but making a value judgement on me for failing to understand them (because "YOU'RE JUST WRONG"-- aka, Fi), and then following it up with a little bit of Te work to back it up (because in citation B, article 1, you falsely stated...) is just what y'all do. But clinging to the ad hominem that I don't understand INTJs, I'm sorry to say, isn't going to win you this one.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Not really. One of the things that you seem to miss about INTJs is that just as we tend to ignore most others' insults and "helpful social advice", we also tend to ignore compliments.
    Fi ignores compliments. But Te is notorious for circle-jerks. Or maybe it's the other way around?

  7. #447
    Junior Member Array chibimusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    They seem to be viewed as narcissistic elitists by many people of other types (or perhaps even by some within their own type), and I'm wondering how accurate these perceptions really may be, or why people actually develop them to begin with.
    I just recently made my boyfriend take the test and he got INTJ. I didn't really believe it at first, he seems to be so full of emotion to me, and I thought he must be a more extraverted type too because he appears so confident.

    But then again I dislike most extroverts. And I think I mistake his passionate opinions/sometimes severe anger for excessive emotion. And/or he shows more emotion to me because we have been so close for so many years. I realize now he is confident because he knows his value and doesn't worry too much what people think of him. He definitely isn't a social butterfly.

    In a lot of ways he is very charismatic. But he rubs so many people the wrong way. Either they love him or deeply despise him. He doesn't sugar coat anything, and would never pretend to like someone who he just doesn't like. Which I think is admirable, no one likes insincerity, I especially dislike it. But he decides that he doesn't like most people rather quickly. I see this as a fault because I think a lot of people have redeeming qualities and that he should give more people the chance to show him that. But he thinks this is a waste of time. He'd rather filter out the people he deems off the bat to be fake or stupid. Or just plain boring. He can be rude to these people because he doesn't care what they think. It bums a lot of my friends out, and people don't understand how I can be with him because I'm so sensitive and considerate to everyone. I don't think I'm a fake person at all, but I do always try to be cordial when I can, and this actually bothers him.

    However, a lot of my friends have seen over time that he is incredibly loyal, cares deeply for me, and often times isn't trying to hurt anyone, just insists on telling it like it is.
    “My dear friend, I am so happy and have sunk so deep into the feeling of calm existence that my art suffers under it. I couldn’t do a drawing now, not a line of one, and yet was never a greater artist than I am in these moments.” -- Goethe, 10 May, The Sorrows of Young Werther

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    Senior Member Array anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibimusha View Post
    I just recently made my boyfriend take the test and he got INTJ.
    Take that determination with a grain of salt. On most of those tests, INTJ is the result you get if you answer each question "correctly."

    Explained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSNTdSSLauQ

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    Junior Member Array chibimusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Take that determination with a grain of salt. On most of those tests, INTJ is the result you get if you answer each question "correctly."

    Explained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSNTdSSLauQ
    Yeah, good point, and I'm not completely convinced... But at the same time, it would explain a lot of the problems in our relationship that used to puzzle me...
    “My dear friend, I am so happy and have sunk so deep into the feeling of calm existence that my art suffers under it. I couldn’t do a drawing now, not a line of one, and yet was never a greater artist than I am in these moments.” -- Goethe, 10 May, The Sorrows of Young Werther

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Z, I don't give a shit what you were "looking forward to," and just once it would be great if you didn't post the predictable: "Stop projecting, dude" when you have nothing relevant to offer.
    Get some new material and stop banging your own drum.
    Don't forget the possibility that you should stop projecting.

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