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  1. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I won't say it's for everyone. It's main strength for Fi types is that it is more based on self-understanding than on any sort of one-size-fits-all social rules. That self-understanding is remarkably difficult to put into words. It doesn't fit in a list of bullet points. (Which is, I know, ironic, because, um, there is a list of four agreements, here ... but if you read closely, they all overlap, they're all manifestations of a single point/perspective.) It's more of a "look at the world like this, and try to develop this attitude" - which is what most "Fi lessons" sound like. It's about listening more than doing, understanding more than acting. All of the agreements require a degree of self-reflection when applied in real life. The Tao Te Ching is written in a similar vein, though with more of an "Ni-Fi" bent than just Fi.
    "Without going out of doors one may know the whole world; without looking out of the window, one may see the Way of Heaven. The further one travels, the less one may know. Thus it is that without moving you shall know; without looking you shall see; without doing you shall achieve." ~ Lao Tzu

    My best guess, from both your quote and this passage above, is that for INTJs, they have an internal system of resonance guiding their visions, and it may be a bit foggy, but perhaps that better preserves the pure essence of the original source.
    Too much definition or absolutes imposed upon it may distort the true meanings. It seems that it's all just meant to be. And maybe our "higher self", more ancient than the body already knows these things, but it's in our subconscious, so when it speaks, you just get feelings.
    I'm not sure that I agree completely with this ideology, but that's how I'm understanding it right now. I could be wrong in my interpretations, and if so, anyone can feel free to refine my presentations here.
    Likes Belle of Kilronan liked this post

  2. #432
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    @anticlimatic This thread is about how they are perceived however and your input is worthwhile from that standpoint. I'm sure you're not alone in your perceptions. I mean it is kind of a major point of the thread - that people don't like INTJs because they misunderstand them.
    "INTJ's think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them."

    Highlander do you relate at all to the this quote? ^

    I'm wondering because I think that this is a valid point. Being that, I would think that this thinking makes it more difficult for others to get close to INTJ's. Therefore making others not likely to understand them.

    So if an INTJ continues to think that other people think like them (i.e.: I'm not taking things personally and I don't expect others too) then that is really the INTJ's misunderstanding of others, which then in return makes others not understand them.

    I guess I'm asking you and all other INTJ's because I seem to relate to that thinking. (If it's just me, then nvm about the whole thing I guess)

    And fixing this issue would all be going on the premise that an INTJ has that type of energy to care about everyone. I know I don't, and I'm an extravert.

    So I think there needs to be a mix between staying true to yourself (putting energy into oneself) and accepting others as they are (putting energy outside oneself.)

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    "Without going out of doors one may know the whole world; without looking out of the window, one may see the Way of Heaven. The further one travels, the less one may know. Thus it is that without moving you shall know; without looking you shall see; without doing you shall achieve." ~ Lao Tzu

    My best guess, from both your quote and this passage above, is that for INTJs, they have an internal system of resonance guiding their visions, and it may be a bit foggy, but perhaps that better preserves the pure essence of the original source.
    Too much definition or absolutes imposed upon it may distort the true meanings.
    It seems that it's all just meant to be. And maybe our "higher self", more ancient than the body already knows these things, but it's in our subconscious, so when it speaks, you just get feelings.
    I'm not sure that I agree completely with this ideology, but that's how I'm understanding it right now. I could be wrong in my interpretations, and if so, anyone can feel free to refine my presentations here.
    I agree with the bold as relating to Ni. I think people with Ni try to preserve the pure essence of the original.

  3. #433
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    "INTJ's think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them."

    Highlander do you relate at all to the this quote? ^

    I'm wondering because I think that this is a valid point. Being that, I would think that this thinking makes it more difficult for others to get close to INTJ's. Therefore making others not likely to understand them.

    So if an INTJ continues to think that other people think like them (i.e.: I'm not taking things personally and I don't expect others too) then that is really the INTJ's misunderstanding of others, which then in return makes others not understand them.

    I guess I'm asking you and all other INTJ's because I seem to relate to that thinking. (If it's just me, then nvm about the whole thing I guess)
    On the first quote, I don't think I relate to it. Other people definitely affect me though it might be clear as to how. I think INTJs are harder to get to know though. Just look at my Norari negatives below - aloof, distant, etc.

    On people thinking like me. I did use to think that way. I was shocked to find out just how different people do think when I discovered typology. It was a revelation.

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  4. #434
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    On the first quote, I don't think I relate to it. Other people definitely affect me though it might be clear as to how. I think INTJs are harder to get to know though. Just look at my Norari negatives below - aloof, distant, etc.

    On people thinking like me. I did use to think that way. I was shocked to find out just how different people do think when I discovered typology. It was a revelation.
    w/r to the bold. That's what I mean. It's certain level of maturity. I think it can take longer and be a shocking road for an NTJ.

    That's kinda what I mean. Without the proper tools an NTJ may never know that there are people that think differently then them. It's Te.

    Similarly to how Fe says "Everyone just feels/acts out behavior according to feeling like this, it feels right according to the external world."

    Te sorta says "Everyone just thinks/acts out behavior according to thinking like this, it makes sense according to the external world."

    I think that once Te finds out that people are all truly different it can allow room for Fi to do it's thing.

    And yea, introverts in general are difficult to get to know. Most come off as distant to me. But I don't take that as a bad thing. They just don't have that kinda of energy for everyone.

  5. #435
    Biting Shards Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Persona versus Personality

    The need to act INTJ, as though being INTJ equates in some way to unique or important; those are earned traits. The persona obscures rather than illuminates; instead of individuals who happen to view the world through a similar spectrum, we instead have the kings of the internet. A collective whose foresight is legend, and whose intellect is incalculable, and who in no shape or form live life’s of quiet desperation. The act leads to a position where it is necessary to tear others down in order to maintain a pecking order, while simultaneously peacocking.
    Now, therefore, lead on where you would have us go, and we will follow with right goodwill; you shall not find us fail you in so far as our strength holds out, but no man can do more than in him lies, no matter how willing he may be.


  6. #436
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    @anticlimatic you really don't understand INTJs. You should listen to uumlau because he does. This thread is about how they are perceived however and your input is worthwhile from that standpoint. I'm sure you're not alone in your perceptions. I mean it is kind of a major point of the thread - that people don't like INTJs because they misunderstand them.
    With all due respect (and I mean this sincerely), no one really cares to make any strenuous effort towards understanding others...and believe me, in the case of trying to understand most INTJs, even if they tried it would be strenuous-- except, of course, for other INTJs-- and maybe ENFPs?-- who seem to delight in the interpersonal resarch. The only reason I bother is because I seem to attract INTJs (as peers) like flies for some crazy reason. You (and many others so far) imply that it's somehow other people's fault for not understanding the type. It's not. It is everyone's responsibility to make themselves, and their intentions, easily understood at face value. This (humility, transparency, vulnerability) is what generates likability, and this is exactly the thing that INTJs shun, probably more so than any other type. This is fine, so long as you understand that forgoing likeability is simply an intrinsic part of you, and a cross to bear-- not the fault of anyone else.

    You know that people who are different from you can like you; the people in your inner circle, for instance-- but it's not for the reasons you think. They don't like you because they think it's an honor to 'be in the club.' They don't like you because they find your input, advice, and assistance invaluable. They like you because you let your guard down around them, and thus allow yourself to be liked on their terms. This can be extended to everyone, perhaps to slightly lesser degrees, and IMO should (which might just be Fe talking).

    I understand INTJs very well, which is how I understand that the impression you're getting that I do not, is likely just a Fi-reaction to the negativity I have on display-- because, you know you, and you likely think quite highly of that individual-- so if someone does not, it must be a product of mere ignorance, amIright?

    Give me a thread that lets me sing their praises, and you'll be clapping me comrade on the back in no time...

  7. #437
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    With all due respect (and I mean this sincerely), no one really cares to make any strenuous effort towards understanding others...
    Nope, most people don't try to understand others. However, if you're one of the more common types, it's remarkably easy to "understand others", except of course for that minority of weirdos that just don't fit in. The assumption that everyone else thinks like you is mostly true for the more common types. Or, at least, way more true than it is for INTJs (or INTPs for that matter!).

    and believe me, in the case of trying to understand most INTJs, even if they tried it would be strenuous-- except, of course, for other INTJs-- and maybe ENFPs?-- who seem to delight in the interpersonal resarch.
    Personally, I don't need other people to "understand me" or "understand INTJs" in general. I believe highlander is bringing up the point about your lack of understanding of INTJs is that while many of your observations are apt, there are key aspects to them that, in our eyes, are untrue or otherwise incomplete.

    You (and many others so far) imply that it's somehow other people's fault for not understanding the type. It's not.
    No, it isn't your fault for not understanding INTJs. But if you are making certain claims about INTJs, especially claims about INTJ motivations, it is entirely fair to call you out on those claims which are false. It isn't your fault that you don't understand quantum electrodynamics to the level of detail that I might understand it, but if you start talking about it, it is not inappropriate for me to point out your lack of understanding and help to clarify it.

    It is everyone's responsibility to make themselves, and their intentions, easily understood at face value.
    This is the essence of communication. Interestingly, it isn't even about "making oneself understood", but rather about listening. If you listen well, you make it much easier for others to listen to you. This listening is one of those "Fi lessons" that INTJs need to learn.

    This (humility, transparency, vulnerability) is what generates likability, and this is exactly the thing that INTJs shun, probably more so than any other type.
    Now THIS is a good assessment of INTJs in general. The only difference between us is the reasons why. You attribute such things to Fi, to the opposites of the virtues you cite, to pride. The part you miss is that it isn't pride, but blindness. It does indeed appear to be pride, to others, and I'm not saying that pride is only rarely a factor, but nearly always, it is that Ni sees XYZ, while everyone else is looking at ABC. The path, for the INTJ, to "likeability" as you put it, is not to do the opposite of what is implied by XYZ (which to you would be being more humble, transparent, and vulnerable), but instead rather to become aware of ABC.

    For the most part, the frustration for INTJs is the constant attributing of "bad attitude" to what we normally do with Ni and Te, when really it's more a matter of becoming aware of Fi and Se, and accounting for those concerns in addition to our normal Ni and Te approaches.

    I understand INTJs very well, which is how I understand that the impression you're getting that I do not, is likely just a Fi-reaction
    No, it's not an "Fi reaction." It's Ni.

    to the negativity I have on display
    No, it's not the negativity, it's the lack of resonance with the truth.

    I very much appreciate negative feedback, and I dislike having people agree with me when what I need to know is what I am missing, in what ways am I wrong. But there is a difference between informative negative feedback that explains what I need to fix, vs uninformative feedback that repeats canards and stereotypes that I've heard for decades, spent years evaluating, and eventually found the truth elsewhere. In short, it isn't that INTJs need to start being "more humble", but rather that INTJs need to understand where that humility comes from within themselves. A young eager INTJ taking your advice would start acting humble, but it would be just a mask; real humility comes from somewhere else, and the path to that place isn't "rejecting pride" per se, but understanding oneself.

    -- because, you know you, and you likely think quite highly of that individual-- so if someone does not, it must be a product of mere ignorance, amIright?
    You aren't entirely wrong here, but it isn't so much how highly one thinks of oneself, but rather it is a comparison of the INTJ's self-knowledge vs the other person's knowledge and experiences.

    Give me a thread that lets me sing their praises, and you'll be clapping me comrade on the back in no time...
    Not really. One of the things that you seem to miss about INTJs is that just as we tend to ignore most others' insults and "helpful social advice", we also tend to ignore compliments.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #438
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    With all due respect (and I mean this sincerely), no one really cares to make any strenuous effort towards understanding others...and believe me, in the case of trying to understand most INTJs, even if they tried it would be strenuous-- except, of course, for other INTJs-- and maybe ENFPs?-- who seem to delight in the interpersonal resarch. The only reason I bother is because I seem to attract INTJs (as peers) like flies for some crazy reason. You (and many others so far) imply that it's somehow other people's fault for not understanding the type. It's not. It is everyone's responsibility to make themselves, and their intentions, easily understood at face value. This (humility, transparency, vulnerability) is what generates likability, and this is exactly the thing that INTJs shun, probably more so than any other type. This is fine, so long as you understand that forgoing likeability is simply an intrinsic part of you, and a cross to bear-- not the fault of anyone else.

    You know that people who are different from you can like you; the people in your inner circle, for instance-- but it's not for the reasons you think. They don't like you because they think it's an honor to 'be in the club.' They don't like you because they find your input, advice, and assistance invaluable. They like you because you let your guard down around them, and thus allow yourself to be liked on their terms. This can be extended to everyone, perhaps to slightly lesser degrees, and IMO should (which might just be Fe talking).

    I understand INTJs very well, which is how I understand that the impression you're getting that I do not, is likely just a Fi-reaction to the negativity I have on display-- because, you know you, and you likely think quite highly of that individual-- so if someone does not, it must be a product of mere ignorance, amIright?

    Give me a thread that lets me sing their praises, and you'll be clapping me comrade on the back in no time...
    If that doesn't sound like an Fe driven viewpoint, I don't know what does. Of course, it's a typology website and presumably the reason we're here is to understand people of different types? Never said it is someone else's fault if they don't understand us. Just stated a fact that they do. On the Fi thing, Uumlau said an insightful and precisely correct thing. He is trying to help you understand the inner workings of a person who thinks differently than you. You are coming across as not listening but perhaps that is an inaccurate perception.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  9. #439
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    If that doesn't sound like an Fe driven viewpoint, I don't know what does. Of course, it's a typology website and presumably the reason we're here is to understand people of different types? Never said it is someone else's fault if they don't understand us. Just stated a fact that they do. On the Fi thing, Uumlau said an insightful and precisely correct thing. He is trying to help you understand the inner workings of a person who thinks differently than you. You are coming across as not listening but perhaps that is an inaccurate perception.
    Yeah I think Fe users have a hard time letting go of that fact. That their morals might be in question because they assume what they believe is right. I was hoping to find some statistics based on functions. But I only seem to get NT/SJ/NF/SP groupings, which doesn't help because those groups contains both Fe and Fi etc.

    I believe once one can see the stats and look at it in more depth, one can then perhaps see why Ni, Fi is difficult to understand. My speculation is that it is not as common. But I have no proof, as of yet. I guess when I say, it is something that I feel, it is probably Ni.

  10. #440
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    ^^ ^^^ I dealt with this guy in four lines, but someone , as yet unnamed, decided to delete it, and not say a word about it, even when asked.

    That's a whole lot of wasted breath for:

    1) clearly you're only describing shitty people, shitty aspects of people, or your shitty interpretations of people, who (might) happen to be INTJ (albeit in a rather funny, and even partially accurate kinda way)

    and

    2) most everything you're saying here is clearly derived from little more than your own shadow SFJ judgments, and is thus not even close to objective (hence partial)

    But hey, if you want to unnecessarily delete a non-hostile post, under the inaccurate judgment that it is, in order to waste your breath, you're the mod.

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