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  1. #421
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Spoken like a true INTJ!
    Isn't it usually INTPs trying to deny that there's such a thing as reality, and claim that life is just a big simulation or something?
    You lose.

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  2. #422
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Most people concentrate on their actual strengths, and at worst simply ignore or avoid their weaknesses. Spinning them into strengths is predominantly done by INTJs, in my experience.
    Ah, so it's what "most people" do that matters - wouldn't that imply that the real problem you have with INTJs is that they aren't like "most people"? Now, as for INTJs, why would they be spinning their weaknesses into strengths around you, hmm? Perhaps because you're doing to them what you're doing here, making broad accusations about their behavior?

    Te when it suits you, Fi when it doesn't. The ol' battle between "there is only one way" and "we are all special snowflakes," Another INTJ staple.
    You ignore those points for which you have no counter, and say things like this, and yet you accuse INTJs of "spinning"? Your angular momentum seems rather high at the moment. Hang on to your glasses: when I spin that fast my glasses often fly off of my face!

    Carpe Adhominem! Bombs away!! (actually it was a 'for instance,' I have about a dozen INTJs whose behavior I've collated into my expressed opinion)
    Ah, so because you have 12 datapoints, and not merely one, we're supposed to take your analysis seriously? Never mind trust your overall synthesis of 12 different individuals, taking the negative traits of each, and plopping all those traits under the classification of "INTJ"? Really?!

    You'd be much better off just quoting traits from here: http://www.xeromag.com/fun/personality.html

    While not the most adept at validating their Ni hunches, they can validate the shit out of their desire to keep their heads in the sand, I'll give y'all that.
    You didn't read a word I wrote, did you? Now whose head is in the sand? I take the time out of my day to explain what makes INTJs tick, and you want to characterize it as a massive defense mechanism?

    I've spent the last several years explaining to other INTJs (mostly online, especially younger ones) what makes them tick, to make all that is confusing about the world to them (us) make more sense. There is a huge disconnect between what INTJs see and most non-INTJs see, and there's hardly anyone that bothers to bridge the gap. The xNFPs try, but in the end they keep on trying to connect with the Fi and ignore the Ni. The INFJs get the Ni, but then judge INTJs in terms of Fe. And the other INTJs are often just as lost as oneself.

    Bridging that gap is useful, because it fosters the corrections to all of those personality flaws that people describe in this thread. A young INTJ doesn't respond very well to all the various Si and Fe lessons that most other people want to teach, any more than most non-INTJs would respond well to the Ni/Te lessons that INTJs would provide. "The Four Agreements", which I linked to, is essentially an Fi manual. Step 1 in getting an INTJ out of his shell is providing a level of self-understanding in Fi terms.

    Case in point.
    No, not really. You're saying that INTJs claim that heads and tails are the same thing, I'm saying they're opposite sides of the same coin.

    Depends on whether or not it's Te or Fi that's disagreeing. I was speaking to the Fi variety.
    This is the kind of statement that makes it fairly clear that you don't understand INTJs as much as you think you do. Ni is disagreeing with you. Te and Fi are more responsible for the articulation of the disagreement. I know it's kind of odd, describing a perceiving function as doing something that one would normally ascribe to judging, but really, it's usually Ni synthesizing information, while Te expresses the logistical/practical aspects of the information and Fi expresses the values aspects of the information. Granted, the expression of the Fi side is often awkward, especially for young INTJs, but the understanding is based in Ni, not Fi.

    In a similar vein, the stubbornness of INTJs is more due to Ni than Fi. It isn't the egotistical, butt-hurt Fi that is digging in its heels and refusing to budge. Rather, it's Ni, it's perceiving. If you see an apple, and you say it's an apple, and someone else disagrees and says it's an orange, are you going to think that you're being "stubborn" to say that it isn't an orange? No, you'll think the other person is blind, or just f-cking with you. Now, when dealing with more intangible things, Ni sees certain truths. Now, let's admit that they aren't necessarily true and correct truths in all contexts for all people, but they're seen, they're perceived. If someone comes along and simply asserts that the truths that Ni sees are not true, without offering any sort of credible explanation, it isn't Fi ego-butthurt that is disagreeing with the assertion, it's Ni perception.

    Do you REALLY want to get an INTJ to acknowledge your point, especially when he's being "stubborn" about it? Rather than saying that his judgment is faulty, instead say that he's looking at a different problem than you are looking at. In other words, his judgment of what he sees with his Ni is perfectly fine, but his Ni observations may be way off base, or, more likely, just aimed at a similar-but-different problem.

    Wouldn't hurt, but those attributes were primarily drawn from other INTJs, not him.
    Oh, yeah, those eleven other data points.

    One thing for you to double-check on is how much of these attributes are attributes of the INTJs themselves, vs attributes of your interactions with INTJs. E.g., if you have any INFJs in your life, with INTJ friends/acquaintances in common, compare how INFJs and INTJs are similar and dissimilar, and to what degree the INFJs perceive the same issues with INTJs that you do, and so on.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  3. #423

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    @uumlau: I appreciate your need for universally true statements as an INTJ, but I'm not bound to such protocol. I don't actually dislike the type, everything negative I've said has been simply a rant targeting all of the negative patterns I've associated with some of them.

    I hope that helps quell the fire some, because I don't have the singular-subject bender skills to get into a point by point, citation by citation, 10 year debate over it. One of the interesting distinctions I've noticed between ENFPs and INTJs, revolves around that tert function that's mostly on display in your response. INTJs, when pressed, seem to default to it-- which is where you get all the butthurt and indignant rage. ENFPs, despite being very familiar with Fi, also default to their tert function when pressed (Te), and therefore come across as much more detached from personal issues in question during heated debates.

  4. #424
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    As a very concrete example, THIS is good advice for INTJs: The Four Agreements
    I finally read this a few months ago, and cannot see why so many people recommend it. I found it repetitive, verbose, anecdotal, and difficult to know how to implement IRL.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The weaknesses actually are strengths. They just don't look like strengths to you at the moment, because they don't serve your ends and annoy you, to boot. That doesn't mean they aren't weaknesses, but rather that there are tradeoffs. I'm fairly good at math, physics, computers and so on. That's a strength. It also means I have a weakness: I can't use math, physics or computers as effective ice breakers with a pretty girl (or most anyone else, for that matter).
    Oh, really? I'd say "try me", but I'm long taken, and won't claim to be especially pretty. Then again, perhaps it's only us plain janes who like math and computers and physics.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #425
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PimpinMcBoltage View Post
    Do INTJs enjoy being hated?
    They like the truth.

  6. #426
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I finally read this a few months ago, and cannot see why so many people recommend it. I found it repetitive, verbose, anecdotal, and difficult to know how to implement IRL.
    I won't say it's for everyone. It's main strength for Fi types is that it is more based on self-understanding than on any sort of one-size-fits-all social rules. That self-understanding is remarkably difficult to put into words. It doesn't fit in a list of bullet points. (Which is, I know, ironic, because, um, there is a list of four agreements, here ... but if you read closely, they all overlap, they're all manifestations of a single point/perspective.) It's more of a "look at the world like this, and try to develop this attitude" - which is what most "Fi lessons" sound like. It's about listening more than doing, understanding more than acting. All of the agreements require a degree of self-reflection when applied in real life. The Tao Te Ching is written in a similar vein, though with more of an "Ni-Fi" bent than just Fi.

    Oh, really? I'd say "try me", but I'm long taken, and won't claim to be especially pretty. Then again, perhaps it's only us plain janes who like math and computers and physics.
    Heh. Given the proportion of men to women in my physics classes in college and grad school, it isn't that they're not pretty, but that they're so very rare. Even you noted that you're already taken.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #427

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    @Jaguar

    Stop the projecting, dude.

    You brought up some great points, and I was really looking forward to where you were steerimg the conversation, but then you went completely off the rails with some totally unnecessary tangent that had almost nothing to do with what Amargith said, and everything to do with your own issues (it was the same drum you beat all the time [which isn't necessarily a bad drum, but was completely unnecessary and unwarranted in the circumstance, which should tell you something]).
    Z, I don't give a shit what you were "looking forward to," and just once it would be great if you didn't post the predictable: "Stop projecting, dude" when you have nothing relevant to offer.
    Get some new material and stop banging your own drum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Why does every single thread have to become either a circle jerk or a mocking fest?

    Will that ever end?
    Same ol' nonsense. Good to see you back, Ras.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Isn't it usually INTPs trying to deny that there's such a thing as reality, and claim that life is just a big simulation or something?
    Universal consciousness is the computer that runs the game, fractal reality matrix is the game code, and we are the game characters. The matrix forms infinitely complex possibilities. The mind and its power to choose gives motion to it all and creates time, whether it's man's mind, God's mind, or whatever other mind may be.

  9. #429
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Heh. Given the proportion of men to women in my physics classes in college and grad school, it isn't that they're not pretty, but that they're so very rare. Even you noted that you're already taken.
    NOW I am, but for much of my academic career, I was not. I don't recall too many (iow any) guys in my classes showing much personal interest. Perhaps they really did prefer pretty girls with no interest in technical subjects . . .
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #430
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There is a huge disconnect between what INTJs see and most non-INTJs see, and there's hardly anyone that bothers to bridge the gap. The xNFPs try, but in the end they keep on trying to connect with the Fi and ignore the Ni. The INFJs get the Ni, but then judge INTJs in terms of Fe. And the other INTJs are often just as lost as oneself.

    Bridging that gap is useful, because it fosters the corrections to all of those personality flaws that people describe in this thread. A young INTJ doesn't respond very well to all the various Si and Fe lessons that most other people want to teach, any more than most non-INTJs would respond well to the Ni/Te lessons that INTJs would provide. "The Four Agreements", which I linked to, is essentially an Fi manual. Step 1 in getting an INTJ out of his shell is providing a level of self-understanding in Fi terms.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    This is the kind of statement that makes it fairly clear that you don't understand INTJs as much as you think you do. Ni is disagreeing with you. Te and Fi are more responsible for the articulation of the disagreement. I know it's kind of odd, describing a perceiving function as doing something that one would normally ascribe to judging, but really, it's usually Ni synthesizing information, while Te expresses the logistical/practical aspects of the information and Fi expresses the values aspects of the information. Granted, the expression of the Fi side is often awkward, especially for young INTJs, but the understanding is based in Ni, not Fi.

    In a similar vein, the stubbornness of INTJs is more due to Ni than Fi. It isn't the egotistical, butt-hurt Fi that is digging in its heels and refusing to budge. Rather, it's Ni, it's perceiving. If you see an apple, and you say it's an apple, and someone else disagrees and says it's an orange, are you going to think that you're being "stubborn" to say that it isn't an orange? No, you'll think the other person is blind, or just f-cking with you. Now, when dealing with more intangible things, Ni sees certain truths. Now, let's admit that they aren't necessarily true and correct truths in all contexts for all people, but they're seen, they're perceived. If someone comes along and simply asserts that the truths that Ni sees are not true, without offering any sort of credible explanation, it isn't Fi ego-butthurt that is disagreeing with the assertion, it's Ni perception.

    Do you REALLY want to get an INTJ to acknowledge your point, especially when he's being "stubborn" about it? Rather than saying that his judgment is faulty, instead say that he's looking at a different problem than you are looking at. In other words, his judgment of what he sees with his Ni is perfectly fine, but his Ni observations may be way off base, or, more likely, just aimed at a similar-but-different problem.
    These things are exactly right (all of it - not just the bolded parts). That's how it works. Thank you for articulating those points.

    @anticlimatic you really don't understand INTJs. You should listen to uumlau because he does. This thread is about how they are perceived however and your input is worthwhile from that standpoint. I'm sure you're not alone in your perceptions. I mean it is kind of a major point of the thread - that people don't like INTJs because they misunderstand them.

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