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Thread: Why do people hate INTJs?

  1. #411
    WhoCares
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    @anticlimatic - It's hilarious you think objective reality exists. And show me any person who doesn't make silent judgements.

  2. #412
    ¤ Array Zarathustra's Avatar
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    @Amargith

    Please don't stop posting your thoughts in here. As you have seen, not a single INTJ has said anything bad about them, and many of us have said that they are awesome. I, personally, have been thinking about them since you wrote them.

    @Jaguar

    Stop the projecting, dude.

    You brought up some great points, and I was really looking forward to where you were steerimg the conversation, but then you went completely off the rails with some totally unnecessary tangent that had almost nothing to do with what Amargith said, and everything to do with your own issues (it was the same drum you beat all the time [which isn't necessarily a bad drum, but was completely unnecessary and unwarranted in the circumstance, which should tell you something]).

    @CapLawyer

    I like you. But stop being such a [hostile word deleted] in this thread. Like Jaguar, you picked some innocuous sentence from Amar's post, and went off on a completely unrelated tangent that had barely anything to do with what she was saying. This is not the "Why I hate feelers" thread. It is a thread about why people tend to dislike INTJs, and Amar's posts are considered highly relevant, valuable and important by us INTJs. Stop allowing *your* issues to ruin it for the rest of us.

    @ Amar: Once again, please continue to post your thoughts in this thread. Thanks
    The Justice Fighter

    XXXX - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  3. #413

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    @Amargith

    Please don't stop posting your thoughts in here. As you have seen, not a single INTJ has said anything bad about them, and many of us have said that they are awesome. I, personally, have been thinking about them since you wrote them.

    @Jaguar

    Stop the projecting, dude.

    You brought up some great points, and I was really looking forward to where you were steerimg the conversation, but then you went completely off the rails with some totally unnecessary tangent that had almost nothing to do with what Amargith said, and everything to do with your own issues (it was the same drum you beat all the time [which isn't necessarily a bad drum, but was completely unnecessary and unwarranted in the circumstance, which should tell you something]).

    @CapLawyer

    I like you. But stop being such a [hostile word deleted] in this thread. Like Jaguar, you picked some innocuous sentence from Amar's post, and went off on a completely unrelated tangent that had barely anything to do with what she was saying. This is not the "Why I hate feelers" thread. It is a thread about why people tend to dislike INTJs, and Amar's posts are considered highly relevant, valuable and important by us INTJs. Stop allowing *your* issues to ruin it for the rest of us.
    You like me, eh? WTF does that matter?

    Not everyone hates you, not everyone hates you for the same reason, and not every suggestion for improvement is a good one. I say that to say the following: I just hope you really know when to listen, and when not to. I've asked for feedback of this sort, and sure enough the advice given (from a feeler perspective, rather than from an experienced person of the same type as me) left me up shit's creek. There was no need to do some of the stuff recommended, and the rest just made me look like a fool. Sometimes ideals are being projected (I guess anyone could do this), rather than what is actually going on in a situation and what should be done to remedy the issues that crop up.

    I don't think there is any real mystery why INTJs are not liked, and Te users seem to universally benefit from reading books like How to Win Friends and Influence People and Peopleware.

    Oh, and... for the love of God, don't apply what you learn to the wrong kinda person. Like, the soft feelery things that a feeler would respond to (and that you'll hear tons about) would probably make another thinker puke. Things that eventually get said like, "show them support, and give them lots of verbal affirmation that you like them, and be nice, etc, etc, etc."

    You have a problem with perceivers generally because you try to impose your way, or try to start controlling everything, or are too rigid and let everything bother you. You have a problem with feelers because you seem cold and not human and can be a source of negativity. You have a problem with sensors, because you're not practical or "here and now" enough, and if you have a problem with extroverts, then it's because you're not outgoing enough. Usually you'll have more problems with the first two than the latter (for example, if you have a problem with an extrovert, then it's probably not the E, but the F or the J), and you can string together the letters to see how the problems stack up.

  4. #414
    ¤ Array Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapLawyer View Post
    You like me, eh? WTF does that matter?
    Well, one, I kinda just felt like saying it so that you knew. I've read a good number of your posts over the last several months, and I think you're a pretty reasonable person and a good thinker. I also just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't saying what I was saying because of any dislike I have for you, but simply because of the unnecessarily hostile post you made toward Amargith.

    Not everyone hates you, not everyone hates you for the same reason, and not every suggestion for improvement is a good one. I say that to say the following: I just hope you really know when to listen, and when not to. I've asked for feedback of this sort, and sure enough the advice given (from a feeler perspective, rather than from an experienced person of the same type as me) left me up shit's creek. There was no need to do some of the stuff recommended, and the rest just made me look like a fool. Sometimes ideals are being projected (I guess anyone could do this), rather than what is actually going on in a situation and what should be done to remedy the issues that crop up.

    I don't think there is any real mystery why INTJs are not liked, and Te users seem to universally benefit from reading books like How to Win Friends and Influence People and Peopleware.

    Oh, and... for the love of God, don't apply what you learn to the wrong kinda person. Like, the soft feelery things that a feeler would respond to (and that you'll hear tons about) would probably make another thinker puke. Things that eventually get said like, "show them support, and give them lots of verbal affirmation that you like them, and be nice, etc, etc, etc."

    You have a problem with perceivers generally because you try to impose your way, or try to start controlling everything, or are too rigid and let everything bother you. You have a problem with feelers because you seem cold and not human and can be a source of negativity. You have a problem with sensors, because you're not practical or "here and now" enough, and if you have a problem with extroverts, then it's because you're not outgoing enough. Usually you'll have more problems with the first two than the latter (for example, if you have a problem with an extrovert, then it's probably not the E, but the F or the J), and you can string together the letters to see how the problems stack up.
    This is all good advice, and sounds a lot more like the reasonable person I've grown accustomed to over the last few months.

    Wrt the bolded: I appreciate that that's what your underlying intent was, and I assure you, I was already taking that into account.

    That being said, Amargith rightfully has the trust of most every INTJ on here, and was not coming from a negative place in her posts.

    Pretty much all INTJs on here know that she loves INTJs, knows us better than almost any other non-INTJ, and is just trying to help.

    I actually appreciated what you said to some extent, cuz there's truth and value to your position (i.e., problematic feeler advice).

    But there's no need to attack her, and if doing so is going to drive her contributions out of this thread, then I ask you to stop.
    The Justice Fighter

    XXXX - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  5. #415
    lurking Array Rasofy's Avatar
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    Why does every single thread have to become either a circle jerk or a mocking fest?

    Will that ever end?

    inb4 'look who's talking'

  6. #416
    Senior Member Array anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So how do most people "spin their motives," hmm? They pretend their douchebag actions are noble, do they not? This is a feature of humanity, not of type.
    Most people concentrate on their actual strengths, and at worst simply ignore or avoid their weaknesses. Spinning them into strengths is predominantly done by INTJs, in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I have not found that type predicts behavior very well at all, in practice.
    Te when it suits you, Fi when it doesn't. The ol' battle between "there is only one way" and "we are all special snowflakes," Another INTJ staple.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It isn't a stretch to assume that anyone complaining about a particular MBTI type in exquisite detail is not describing the type as a class at all, but is using the type as a proxy for real people in their lives.

    Ahh, there we go. We're really talking about your room mate as a proxy for all INTJs. It's not a "for instance." (This is your spin.)
    Carpe Adhominem! Bombs away!! (actually it was a 'for instance,' I have about a dozen INTJs whose behavior I've collated into my expressed opinion)

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    From my own experience as an INTJ, the problem isn't that we're somehow less aware than other types, but rather that roughly 99% of society is not INTJ, which means that 99% of the advice INTJs receive about what their weaknesses are, and how to improve upon them, is mostly bogus. Much of such advice is in Fe terms, or Si terms, and at best, that just teaches INTJs to put on a mask so that they don't upset others. But the mask sucks, because eventually the true self appears, and ends up repulsing others.

    As a very concrete example, THIS is good advice for INTJs: The Four Agreements

    Here are some examples of BAD ADVICE for INTJs (but that can be helpful for others):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTENR91f2J0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R8DAcP59fo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TU1P2_I0iE
    While not the most adept at validating their Ni hunches, they can validate the shit out of their desire to keep their heads in the sand, I'll give y'all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Now we get to the nub of it.

    The weaknesses actually are strengths. They just don't look like strengths to you at the moment, because they don't serve your ends and annoy you, to boot. That doesn't mean they aren't weaknesses, but rather that there are tradeoffs.
    Case in point.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ah, yes, the old "you're too ego-defensive to agree with me" schtick. If an INTJ disagrees with you, "ego-defensiveness" is the least likely reason for the disagreement.
    Depends on whether or not it's Te or Fi that's disagreeing. I was speaking to the Fi variety.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    anticlimatic, my friend, you need a new room mate. Seriously.
    Wouldn't hurt, but those attributes were primarily drawn from other INTJs, not him.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    @anticlimatic - It's hilarious you think objective reality exists.
    Spoken like a true INTJ!

  7. #417
    Administrator Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    @ Amar: Once again, please continue to post your thoughts in this thread. Thanks
    @Amargith

    Yes please

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  8. #418
    ¤ Array Zarathustra's Avatar
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    What the fuck happened to my post (#413) where I mentioned @anticlimatic?
    The Justice Fighter

    XXXX - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  9. #419
    Unapologetic being Array Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    This is a neat little novel observation. I like it, I'm inclined to agree.
    Good. I'm glad that I was able to communicate that effectively. I also wont take all the credit for it, as it was mostly Amargith's post that made me want to finish out the thought more.

    ( @Amargith just a thank you girly you don't have to respond to this though, don't worryz. )

    Yes, this is how most INTJs spin their motives; identifying with some fundamental core process that only in the most ideal contexts would be noble. "Getting to the depth" of a subject might matter if you're researching cancer, but most of the time with the INTJs I know, it really just means "playing the same video game for 15 hours straight," or "binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fan fiction."
    Hmm...I tend to "research" things I like. I don't tend to really enjoy things if they don't have a lot of depth or if they're not a challenge though. So I would think other NTJ's would like a challenge as well. Hmm...I guess it could be like saying instead of researching cancer, I am watching movie, after movie, after movie....

    Why is this a fault though? Hmm...I think I'm doing the thing where I'm getting caught up with the trees...(this is me asking for help/feedback)

    If someone enjoys it and it's not harming others, is it bad or a flaw? Or are you saying these ppl complain about having no friends but do nothing about that cause they're too caught up with Dragon Ball Z? Cause then I could see...it's a flaw and their own fault.

    I really...really...enjoy thinking about one particular subject for quite a while though...making sure I have figured out every tiny aspect of it. Comparing contexts...etc... I think Si does the same thing actually. It's like wanting to be so thorough in a subject so that you see all sides.

    With INTJs, unless they can find a minion to do it for them, anything past the threshold if implementation tends to sit on the backburner forever. They will roughly 'strategize' the plan, gather all of the materials necessary to follow through with it…and just leave them in shopping bags, while they binge read every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction instead. It's like their motivation completely evaporates when it comes down to actually following through with a task, post-planning stage, and they move on to some other life-consuming bender. My INTJ room mate, for instance, had a truckload of firewood delivered to the property to dry out over the summer-- where it still sits, buried under the snow, because he never actually got around to cutting and stacking it in the garage-- which he couldn't do anyway, because the garage is a disaster; covered in panels that he stained for an end-table he was making, which simply need to be put together to be finished, which have been sitting there since august.
    Baahhaha as soon as I read the word implementation I understood. Only cause it's where the fun stops for me...However...that does not mean that I don't do my best on the implementation despite how tedious it may seem. And I guess I usually ask a friend to help me at that point if I'm feeling really demotivated. Which you may be considering them the minions?

    (btws I know you're not directing this at me or anything like that, I just have to bring it down to the "if this was me" context so that I can fully grasp the stuffs you're talking about I hope you don't mind )

    I'm talking mostly about Fi; accountability for the impact we have on others, and how INTJs completely ignore it. They think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them-- so they feel like they should have a license to be douchebags (Te/Fi). Never mind that it irritates people. Never mind that it alienates them. Never mind that in the long run it causes them far more harm than good, because--
    This is actually pretty good, the part in bold I mean. I used to have this problem more...and still do. It's taken me some time to be able to catch myself in the act of assuming people think like I do. I think all types still do that to some degree...but MBTI especially has helped me understand this more actually.

    And I think that you have kinda pinpointed the answer to the OP. I think it's been said many times in this thread...but the thought process was not explained in this way.

    --they don't actually see it as anything they need to improve upon. It's hard for anyone to see the forest through the trees, I admit, but INTJs are the worst at actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are, and where they actually need to improve. Instead, they fixate on things they think they need to improve on, which are often more unhealthy than healthy, and ignore anything else. It's that whole "my weaknesses are actually strengths you're just too stupid to understand" thing. No, they're weaknesses you're too ego-defensive about to be able to see for what they are, and therefore do anything about them. So instead they focus on "improving" seemingly random aspects of their projected "image" rather than their actual core being. Consequentially, an INTJs idea of "self improvement," to use a metaphor, is a bit like a prize fighter attempting to strength train for an upcoming bout….by binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction (is this joke getting old yet?).


    This is a Fi/Se thing, I think. If they don't feel like doing something, especially if there are negative sensory aspects about the task in question, they will not do it except in the most rare, pained, and grudgingly moments. They are unaffected by the thrill of comradery, so therefore can not ever be rallied to to provide on-the-spot aid when it's needed.
    This part I don't relate to at all...is this inferior Se or something?? I think it's cause I'm an extravert so I can extract some use/fun out of my interactions.

    Incoming ad hominem...

    Re-spun that for you to better accommodate objective reality. You're welcome.
    You're funny.

    I liked Who Cares post though. See I think I see that as healthy Fi...Like it's saying "This is how we are, accept us as how we are or don't. It's up to you." Maybe it should be rephrased as

    I like it only cause I need to be more true to myself probably....(inferior Fi)

    Maybe you're saying that INTJ's don't give in once and a while, an let others have their way?

    ****

    Anyways on the silent judgment part... I am mostly always going to say that Ti and Fi pass waaaaaaaay more "silent" judgments...They keep them in and you find out 2 years later they hated that you did such and such...wtf. Why didn't you just tell me Ji?

    lol...This goes back to preferences again. All 4 judgment functions pass judgments all the time.

    From my pov (using the 2 year example above) we could have changed the problem if Ji just addressed it 2 years ago. And that is assuming that everyone wants that kinda feedback, yes.

    I don't aim to piss ppl off...I aim to correct the problem...Others don't aim to do this correction though....and that is the part I don't get....I would call that ego-protecting on their part cause they don't want to hear what problem they're causing. If there is a problem...I want to hear about it, so then we can try to fix it...I don't want it to get swept under the rug. And I also want to be able to say...at least we tried our best.

    At least Je gets it out in the air. Ji seems to act like it doesn't matter, when it really does matter...Also Je can take what they give...Ji doesn't want the problem to be addressed in the first place.

    But it's all what you prefer I guess. And taking that into account is something that people in general don't do, no matter what type. But are you saying INTJ's are one of the worst types that don't?

    ***

    Anyways thanks for taking the time to give me examples. I really enjoyed this

  10. #420
    Senior Member Array PimpinMcBoltage's Avatar
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    Do INTJs enjoy being hated?
    Phelgmatic-Jewish-Communist-Islamic-Transethnic-Asexual-National Socialist

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