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Thread: Why do people hate INTJs?

  1. #401
    Raag Array Qre:us's Avatar
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    What just happened here?

  2. #402
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ Array digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Feelings. As usual.
    ✻ღϠ₡ღ✻
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    •.¸¸. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒჱܓ. இڿڰۣ.¸¸.இڿڰۣ´¯`·.─♥


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    People hate INTJs because they are annoying, controlling, tight-assed, rigid, think they are right even when they're not, or any other number of things. But they can get away with it all (or it won't matter) if they proactively show positive emotions. People love rolling around in the dynamic those two things together provide. They write songs about it. Don't sell yourself out!

  4. #404
    Raag Array Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Feelings. As usual.
    Fe Fi Fo Fum......


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    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Feelings. As usual.
    Yeah, it takes real personal strength to deal with feelings, especially dealing with them head-on and learning from them rather than avoiding them.

    It doesn't matter whether one is a "thinker" or a "feeler": it's tough for everyone.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, it takes real personal strength to deal with feelings, especially dealing with them head-on and learning from them rather than avoiding them.

    It doesn't matter whether one is a "thinker" or a "feeler": it's tough for everyone.
    Bingo. There are no experts once it gets personal to the individual.
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  7. #407
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    Anyway.....back to the original question. Mainly because I can't be arsed reading the 11 pages I just missed and this thread has drifted into some other universe. But here's why I think a lot of people dismiss the INTJ as being arrogant, elitist etc....Note I am now using the royal 'we', make of that what you will.

    We have a certain level of confidence and decidedness in our convictions and state them as being concrete. Because they are concrete in our minds. There's no need to seek validation, confirmation, or recruit believers into our convictions before we come right out and state them. This seems to flout social convention where one would politely put forward their thoughts 'for discussion' in order to recruit a certain amount of agreement and then be allowed to hold these convictions because other's find them agreeable also.

    We value quality. Quality being whatever lines up with our internal compass of a job well done or executed immaculately. A lot of people value validation, a pat on the back for simply being or doing anything at all, regardless of how well executed. INTJs don't give out prizes for participation, we care about execution and quality. Others find this belittling or invalidating.

    We have the unnerving ability to make eye contact without automatically accompanying that with a smile, wave, airkiss, hug etc. Eye contact does not make us nervous or uncomfortable, neither does it necessarily prompt any kind of interaction. We like to observe and make silent conclusions. I've heard that comes across as judgemental.

  8. #408
    Senior Member Array anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    In a similar way, I think that most extraverted functions do not have the patience to wait around for their introverted counterparts. Sort of like Amargith said. So to continue the thought...Ne doesn't have patience for Ni, Te doesn't have patience for Ti, Fe doesn't have patience for Fi, and Se doesn't have patience for Si.
    This is a neat little novel observation. I like it, I'm inclined to agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Ha ha. I find this ironic and funny cause I look at beating a dead horse as a strength...in that it's getting to the depth of the subject.
    Yes, this is how most INTJs spin their motives; identifying with some fundamental core process that only in the most ideal contexts would be noble. "Getting to the depth" of a subject might matter if you're researching cancer, but most of the time with the INTJs I know, it really just means "playing the same video game for 15 hours straight," or "binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fan fiction."

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Maybe some examples of what you qualify as "not finished" looks like to you, would be more helpful in gaining perspective on this?
    With INTJs, unless they can find a minion to do it for them, anything past the threshold if implementation tends to sit on the backburner forever. They will roughly 'strategize' the plan, gather all of the materials necessary to follow through with it…and just leave them in shopping bags, while they binge read every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction instead. It's like their motivation completely evaporates when it comes down to actually following through with a task, post-planning stage, and they move on to some other life-consuming bender. My INTJ room mate, for instance, had a truckload of firewood delivered to the property to dry out over the summer-- where it still sits, buried under the snow, because he never actually got around to cutting and stacking it in the garage-- which he couldn't do anyway, because the garage is a disaster; covered in panels that he stained for an end-table he was making, which simply need to be put together to be finished, which have been sitting there since august.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I think this is where I disagree. If we are talking about young INTJ's then I guess I can understand this ...but even then...it's irrelevant cause everyone projects when they're young.

    Unless your saying that they do it more so than others in this young stage of life.

    Or unless you're saying that they continue to do this into adulthood.

    I would think that an NTJ would take someone saying "This happened because of you" as feedback. Consider it. And respond accordingly. (Now whether they think it's useful feedback or not that's another thing all on it's own. Is the latter maybe what you're talking about?)
    I'm talking mostly about Fi; accountability for the impact we have on others, and how INTJs completely ignore it. They think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them-- so they feel like they should have a license to be douchebags (Te/Fi). Never mind that it irritates people. Never mind that it alienates them. Never mind that in the long run it causes them far more harm than good, because--

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    What do their self improvement ideas have to do with then?
    --they don't actually see it as anything they need to improve upon. It's hard for anyone to see the forest through the trees, I admit, but INTJs are the worst at actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are, and where they actually need to improve. Instead, they fixate on things they think they need to improve on, which are often more unhealthy than healthy, and ignore anything else. It's that whole "my weaknesses are actually strengths you're just too stupid to understand" thing. No, they're weaknesses you're too ego-defensive about to be able to see for what they are, and therefore do anything about them. So instead they focus on "improving" seemingly random aspects of their projected "image" rather than their actual core being. Consequentially, an INTJs idea of "self improvement," to use a metaphor, is a bit like a prize fighter attempting to strength train for an upcoming bout….by binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction (is this joke getting old yet?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Interesting. Do you have examples on how they're lazy as this Mr/Mrs Fuck person you speak of?
    This is a Fi/Se thing, I think. If they don't feel like doing something, especially if there are negative sensory aspects about the task in question, they will not do it except in the most rare, pained, and grudgingly moments. They are unaffected by the thrill of comradery, so therefore can not ever be rallied to to provide on-the-spot aid when it's needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    So who is this INTJ person in your life?
    Incoming ad hominem...

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Anyway.....back to the original question. Mainly because I can't be arsed reading the 11 pages I just missed and this thread has drifted into some other universe. But here's why I think a lot of people dismiss the INTJ as being arrogant, elitist etc....Note I am now using the royal 'we', make of that what you will.

    We have a certain level of hubris in our convictions and state them as being non-debatable. We see no need to seek validation, confirmation, or recruit believers into our convictions before we come right out and state them. This completely ignores social convention where one would politely put forward their thoughts 'for discussion' in order to recruit a certain amount of agreement and then be allowed to hold these convictions because other's find them agreeable also.

    We value expediency. Quality being completely subjective to us with no actual grounds in reality. A lot of people value external validation. INTJs don't give out prizes for participation, we care about ourselves. Others find this obviously belittling or invalidating.

    We have the unnerving ability to awkwardly smile only with our mouths and not our eyes. Eye contact does not make us nervous or uncomfortable, neither does it necessarily prompt any kind of interaction. We like to observe and pass silent judgements. I've heard that comes across as judgmental.
    Re-spun that for you to better accommodate objective reality. You're welcome.

  9. #409
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Yes, this is how most INTJs spin their motives; identifying with some fundamental core process that only in the most ideal contexts would be noble.
    So how do most people "spin their motives," hmm? They pretend their douchebag actions are noble, do they not? This is a feature of humanity, not of type.

    "Getting to the depth" of a subject might matter if you're researching cancer, but most of the time with the INTJs I know, it really just means "playing the same video game for 15 hours straight," or "binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fan fiction."
    You don't get to say things like this and be taken seriously without answering chubber's question:
    So who is this INTJ person in your life?
    It isn't a stretch to assume that anyone complaining about a particular MBTI type in exquisite detail is not describing the type as a class at all, but is using the type as a proxy for real people in their lives. Now, unlike some people, I don't fault other posters for doing this - it's perfectly natural. But in order to have a solid discussion about type, one must needs separate the concrete instances of the behavior of a specific person from the type overall.

    I have not found that type predicts behavior very well at all, in practice. It's why the MBTI tends to suck and be confusing for so many people. Applied correctly, type describes very specific features of people, and those features have tendencies w/r to personality, but really doesn't describe personality that well, overall. Personally, I use typology for communication. For example, if I know I'm dealing with an INTJ, I know I can wave my hands and make very general arguments very quickly to cover common ground, and then get more specific once we get to differences; with an INTP, I know that I don't get to wave my hands, I have to cover all of the common ground before I can get to the actual differences in our arguments.

    With INTJs, unless they can find a minion to do it for them, anything past the threshold if implementation tends to sit on the backburner forever. They will roughly 'strategize' the plan, gather all of the materials necessary to follow through with it…and just leave them in shopping bags, while they binge read every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction instead. It's like their motivation completely evaporates when it comes down to actually following through with a task, post-planning stage, and they move on to some other life-consuming bender. My INTJ room mate, for instance, had a truckload of firewood delivered to the property to dry out over the summer-- where it still sits, buried under the snow, because he never actually got around to cutting and stacking it in the garage-- which he couldn't do anyway, because the garage is a disaster; covered in panels that he stained for an end-table he was making, which simply need to be put together to be finished, which have been sitting there since august.
    Ahh, there we go. We're really talking about your room mate as a proxy for all INTJs. It's not a "for instance." (This is your spin.)

    I've an INTP in my past who was, for the most part, a complete ass, who's managed to piss of just about everyone he works with. He's a great "instance" to explain the typical flaws of INTPs. But I know he doesn't represent all INTPs, and that most INTPs are way more classy than he is. He's a useful example especially because he is so extreme. Similarly, I am sure your room mate is a useful example of how INTJs can go wrong.

    I'm talking mostly about Fi; accountability for the impact we have on others, and how INTJs completely ignore it. They think that because they are incapable of being affected by others, that others aught to be incapable of being affected by them-- so they feel like they should have a license to be douchebags (Te/Fi). Never mind that it irritates people. Never mind that it alienates them. Never mind that in the long run it causes them far more harm than good, because--

    --they don't actually see it as anything they need to improve upon. It's hard for anyone to see the forest through the trees, I admit, but INTJs are the worst at actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are, and where they actually need to improve.
    Um, please cite examples of types of people who are good actually being able to identify what their actual weaknesses are. Functionally, no one really understands their own weaknesses. They can point at them, perhaps, if they're self aware, but weaknesses are necessarily our shadow selves, and like the Spanish Inquisition, they strike when least expected.

    From my own experience as an INTJ, the problem isn't that we're somehow less aware than other types, but rather that roughly 99% of society is not INTJ, which means that 99% of the advice INTJs receive about what their weaknesses are, and how to improve upon them, is mostly bogus. Much of such advice is in Fe terms, or Si terms, and at best, that just teaches INTJs to put on a mask so that they don't upset others. But the mask sucks, because eventually the true self appears, and ends up repulsing others.

    As a very concrete example, THIS is good advice for INTJs: The Four Agreements

    Here are some examples of BAD ADVICE for INTJs (but that can be helpful for others):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTENR91f2J0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R8DAcP59fo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TU1P2_I0iE


    Instead, they fixate on things they think they need to improve on, which are often more unhealthy than healthy, and ignore anything else.
    This is human nature, not INTJ nature.

    It's that whole "my weaknesses are actually strengths you're just too stupid to understand" thing.
    Now we get to the nub of it.

    The weaknesses actually are strengths. They just don't look like strengths to you at the moment, because they don't serve your ends and annoy you, to boot. That doesn't mean they aren't weaknesses, but rather that there are tradeoffs. I'm fairly good at math, physics, computers and so on. That's a strength. It also means I have a weakness: I can't use math, physics or computers as effective ice breakers with a pretty girl (or most anyone else, for that matter).

    No, they're weaknesses you're too ego-defensive about to be able to see for what they are, and therefore do anything about them. So instead they focus on "improving" seemingly random aspects of their projected "image" rather than their actual core being. Consequentially, an INTJs idea of "self improvement," to use a metaphor, is a bit like a prize fighter attempting to strength train for an upcoming bout….by binge reading every issue of some arcane homoerotic furry dragon ball Z fanfiction (is this joke getting old yet?).
    Ah, yes, the old "you're too ego-defensive to agree with me" schtick. If an INTJ disagrees with you, "ego-defensiveness" is the least likely reason for the disagreement.

    In the case of personal flaws, well, when was the last time you pointed out another person's personal flaws (in your perspective) to them, and they replied, "Oh, my dear! You're right! I totally suck. I need to stop what I'm doing right now and conform to what you believe should be my ideal behaviors!" INTJ, ESFP, INTP, etc. - type doesn't matter, people don't work that way.



    This is a Fi/Se thing, I think. If they don't feel like doing something, especially if there are negative sensory aspects about the task in question, they will not do it except in the most rare, pained, and grudgingly moments. They are unaffected by the thrill of comradery, so therefore can not ever be rallied to to provide on-the-spot aid when it's needed.
    anticlimatic, my friend, you need a new room mate. Seriously.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  10. #410
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    Wait, so are @anticlimatic and @WhoCares roommates?

    Your rants are funny, well-written, and poignant, anticlimatic.

    But it seems like the real problem is that you surround yourself with shitty people.

    That, and, well, you sound a bit like a [hostility deleted] ESFJ complaining about that kid who breaks all the rules.
    Last edited by highlander; 12-04-2013 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Undeleting and fixing the hostile part
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