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  1. #31
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I don't even know if it's Te as much as it is Fi.
    I'm sure Fi has a lot to do with it. The INTJ's who are easy to get along with usually have well developed Fi, or at least are not in a tertiary loop.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Do you think then that INTP is the type which "hates" (conflicts with) INTJ's the most?

    I know Ti and Te clash quite a bit.
    I think @INTP is the person that hates and loves INTJs the most. You know the dynamic:


  3. #33
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I think @INTP is the person that hates and loves INTJs the most. You know the dynamic:



    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    The external data I was referring to was the Te that INTJ's have.

    Any unhealthiness shown in type is mostly because the person's not incorporating their auxillary function in their lives as much as they should be.
    Te is not data; it is a judgment function that can and should be used to assess the merits of Ni visions. You are correct that this will not happen in someone with underdeveloped aux.

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Everything that's wrong with INTJs (some INTJs, not all-- maybe most, who knows-- either way depends on the person) comes from that goddamn tert Fi. Present an INTJ with information that doesn't quite line up with their Te worldview, and the tert Fi generator kicks in automatically to explode with so much self righteous indignation and sarcastic contempt that it feels like you just broke open a pinata full of thirteen year old girls. All that cold logic and reason and desire to better oneself goes completely out the window if whatever they are presented with contradicts one of their Fi values, regardless of how rationally constructed that value happens to be.
    That worldview comes from Ni, not Te. What you are describing sounds more like a Ni-Fi loop, where the Fi-valuation of the worldview remains uncorrected by objective Te analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Te can come across as assuming the person they are talking to doesn't know the things they know. This can appear condescending. The fact that you know something doesn't mean other people don't know it too.

    The thing that bothers me the most is lack of explanation. This is supremely arrogant, because you're invalidating the other person's reasoning process and telling them to ignore it.
    This is contradictory. It is when I assume someone doesn't know something that I will bother to explain. If I don't explain something, it is because I assume the other person does know it. My assumption could be incorrect either way, but this is opposite from what you are describing.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #34
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    The thread originally when I just checked in here 2 minutes ago say that there were 37 guests, which was absolutely mind-blowing; of course, now it's down to 33.

  5. #35
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That worldview comes from Ni, not Te.
    The worldview is gathered with Ni/Se, but assembled with Te/Fi. I tend to assign more casualty to the judging functions, and typically more malevolent casualty to the less developed judging functions.

  6. #36
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is contradictory. It is when I assume someone doesn't know something that I will bother to explain. If I don't explain something, it is because I assume the other person does know it. My assumption could be incorrect either way, but this is opposite from what you are describing.
    Well, you are one of the INTJ's who do explain things, so it wouldn't apply to you. I don't think the first would apply to you either, as you've never come across to me as a know-it-all.

    Lack of explanation when there is disagreement is the point in question, or when the theory is particularly nebulous and Ni to the extreme. It becomes an issue only if I ask for clarification and it's not given.

  7. #37
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well, you are one of the INTJ's who do explain things, so it wouldn't apply to you. I don't think the first would apply to you either, as you've never come across to me as a know-it-all.

    Lack of explanation when there is disagreement is the point in question, or when the theory is particularly nebulous and Ni to the extreme. It becomes an issue only if I ask for clarification and it's not given.
    I am not objecting because I feel your description does not apply to me. I am objecting because on the one hand you are saying INTJs assume other people don't know what they themselves know, and on the other hand that INTJs don't give explanations. Or it that your point - that INTJs readily allow others to continue on in ignorance?

    I for one do tend to assume people know more than they do. Assuming they do not know seems tantamount to considering them ignorant or even stupid, and no self-respecting INTJ would harbor such a view about his/her fellow humans. This means people sometimes ask me to explain myself, but I am usually happy to oblige.

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    The worldview is gathered with Ni/Se, but assembled with Te/Fi. I tend to assign more casualty to the judging functions, and typically more malevolent casualty to the less developed judging functions.
    All four functions are indeed involved, with Ni/Se being the perceiving functions. Ni visions don't arise in a vacuum, but are influenced by everything the person has ever learned or experienced. This doesn't mean any of it is based on fact, though. Ni is so much stronger than Se, its perceptions really do seem to have come out of nowhere oftentimes. The role of Te/Fi is not so much assembly as evaluation and correction. The assembly happens effortlessly within Ni itself. It seems valid to associate causality with the judging functions, though especially Je, since that is what will translate or apply the Ni output in the outside world.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  8. #38
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am not objecting because I feel your description does not apply to me. I am objecting because on the one hand you are saying INTJs assume other people don't know what they themselves know, and on the other hand that INTJs don't give explanations. Or it that your point - that INTJs readily allow others to continue on in ignorance?

    I for one do tend to assume people know more than they do. Assuming they do not know seems tantamount to considering them ignorant or even stupid, and no self-respecting INTJ would harbor such a view about his/her fellow humans. This means people sometimes ask me to explain myself, but I am usually happy to oblige.
    It's not only INTJ's who assume other people don't know things. I've noticed it in ISFJ's, ENTJ's, and ENFJ's as well. It's probably just a Je thing. In these instances people are perfectly happy to explain what they are saying, it's just unsolicited.

    This is an entirely separate behavior, which occurs in different situations. I think you were combining the things I said; they were supposed to be separate points. The first refers to facts (which the INTJ is perfectly happy to talk about), and the second refers to opinions and theories (which are more potentially threatening to Fi).

  9. #39
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I'm completely fine with people stating the obvious, just to make things more clear. Other people though who are more worried about respect for their intelligence, along with having a dislike for details may think differently.



    This idea can be explained quite simply with the anology of legos; the pieces by themselves aren't worth too much, but if you can put them all together into a construct, then they become something.



    Who in particular do you have in mind?

    I'm not completely fine with stating the obvious. It's tedious and draining

    The pieces are already connected for Ni.


    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Do you think then that INTP is the type which "hates" (conflicts with) INTJ's the most?

    I know Ti and Te clash quite a bit.
    Ti and Ni clash. They're practically opposites.

    Whatever one finds relevant...the other finds irrelevant...and visa versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    They don't. "People" hate and fear what they reject in themselves.

    Or were you still thinking typology is about other people.
    New name of all threads. ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Agreed.... this is something that some INTJs do that bugs me. Because, like, if I was intelligent, I should have understood whatever they said without an explanation. That's not gonna fly with me, baby. This cat don't roll that way.



    I don't even know if it's Te as much as it is Fi.

    Again, though, there are a lot of INTJs here I really like.
    Why does it bug you so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post



    Te is not data; it is a judgment function that can and should be used to assess the merits of Ni visions. You are correct that this will not happen in someone with underdeveloped aux.
    Yea, I didnt' really complete my sentence there. ..did I... (I'm trying to be ironic, I think I assumed that we all know that Te doesn't provide the data, but formulates/assembles/organizes and says this is why this is right and this is why this is wrong) <_< ... >_> lol? irony...anybody...get it??

    Well that's ok I'll laugh at myself.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    I for one do tend to assume people know more than they do. Assuming they do not know seems tantamount to considering them ignorant or even stupid, and no self-respecting INTJ would harbor such a view about his/her fellow humans. This means people sometimes ask me to explain myself, but I am usually happy to oblige.


    All four functions are indeed involved, with Ni/Se being the perceiving functions. Ni visions don't arise in a vacuum, but are influenced by everything the person has ever learned or experienced. This doesn't mean any of it is based on fact, though. Ni is so much stronger than Se, its perceptions really do seem to have come out of nowhere oftentimes. The role of Te/Fi is not so much assembly as evaluation and correction. The assembly happens effortlessly within Ni itself. It seems valid to associate causality with the judging functions, though especially Je, since that is what will translate or apply the Ni output in the outside world.
    Hmm...so maybe that's what's different.

    You are saying that Je doesn't assemble...as much as correct...

    I was definately thinking that it did.... I see my error

    I keep forgetting that Ni is similar to Si in the way it stores information.
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  10. #40
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    "Why do people hate themselves?"
    Asking for input != self hate. Stubbornly proclaiming ignorance to the world, though, isn't a virtue.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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