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Thread: Why do people hate INTJs?

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Are you talking about INTJs, or do you actually have a few real life people in mind? Also don't discount the possibility that such INTJs you might be dealing with are simply bored and saying things just to annoy you. Particularly on forums, there are those INTJs that are fairly laid back, and others which like to say things in such a way as to start fights and see what happens.


    Of course, if there is a fire, you put it out. The INTJ gets upset when he points out the faulty electrical wiring that isn't up to code, and everyone else is like, "So? That's the way it has always been."

    If you're running into INTJs that are standing around saying, "I told you so," and not helping with putting out the fire, might I respectfully submit that maybe they aren't INTJs, but perhaps INTPs?
    You're doing the ego-protection/spin thing again. Yes, I'm talking about INTJs as a generality, whether meat or cyberspace.

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    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    You're doing the ego-protection/spin thing again. Yes, I'm talking about INTJs as a generality, whether meat or cyberspace.
    If it's spin and ego-protection, then you already know the truth, and don't need to hear it from me.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    And back we go to where INTJs are 'right' which includes no attachment to reality, sets up the premise that there's only one way to handle situations which sources from the need for INTJs to ego-protect at any cost.
    Spin, spin, spin.
    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    To use Freud's psychoanalytical triangle, INTJs have overdeveloped superegos and subsequently have underdeveloped IDs and balancing egos.

    The more INTJs mature, the more they realise that they have to live life, rather than allow fear of everything to stop them from doing so. Once again, risk/return calculation.
    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Don't get me wrong. On average, I find INTJs to be an intelligent and interesting bunch. But what grates like dental planing is their need to always spin things in favour of ego protection and inflation.

    I don't disagree with any of this but will pose another consideration. When reality intrudes on ultimate solutions, can INTJs perceive the need to act? In your example, it would only be logical to put out the fires first, then work on prevention so that the home built isn't razed to the ground. INTJs tend to disregard fires and present future phoenix rising, idealistic solutions. There's no balance and no alignment with reality.

    Refer to my above context shift which includes key data to action model that INTJs tend to disregard.
    I'm actually really good when the shit hits the fan, so what you're describing about getting locked into theory or idealism isn't right. We are above all, practical. It's all about the results and not process. There is a bias towards achieving long term results than short term results but that doesn't mean we ignore them because poor short term results can unwind the long term results that we crave.

    As far as the superego thing, the ego protection and inflation - I am not understanding what you mean. Here are some definitions I found on Wikipedia. What is it specifically about INTJs that relate to these things?

    Ego: Originally, Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self, but later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory. The ego separates out what is real. It helps us to organize our thoughts and make sense of them and the world around us.

    Superego: The superego reflects the internalization of cultural rules, mainly taught by parents applying their guidance and influence. Freud's theory implies that the super-ego is a symbolic internalisation of the father figure and cultural regulations. The super-ego tends to stand in opposition to the desires of the id because of their conflicting objectives, and its aggressiveness towards the ego. The super-ego acts as the conscience, maintaining our sense of morality and proscription from taboos.

    Id: The id is the disorganized part of the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the only component of personality that is present from birth. The id is the part of the mind containing the drives present at birth; it is the source of our bodily needs, wants, desires, and impulses, particularly our sexual and aggressive drives. The id operates according to the pleasure principle, the psychic force that motivates the tendency to seek immediate gratification of any impulse. The id contains the libido, which is the primary source of instinctual force that is unresponsive to the demands of reality. The id acts according to the "pleasure principle", seeking to avoid pain or unpleasure (not 'displeasure') aroused by increases in instinctual tension.

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    I love INTJs.
    That is all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If it's spin and ego-protection, then you already know the truth, and don't need to hear it from me.
    And out comes the dreaded Fi attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'm actually really good when the shit hits the fan, so what you're describing about getting locked into theory or idealism isn't right. We are above all, practical. It's all about the results and not process. There is a bias towards achieving long term results than short term results but that doesn't mean we ignore them because poor short term results can unwind the long term results that we crave.
    You're not a good example of the average INTJ. You've got well developed Fi and are developing Se.

    As far as the superego thing, the ego protection and inflation - I am not understanding what you mean. Here are some definitions I found on Wikipedia. What is it specifically about INTJs that relate to these things?

    Ego: Originally, Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self, but later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory. The ego separates out what is real. It helps us to organize our thoughts and make sense of them and the world around us.

    Superego: The superego reflects the internalization of cultural rules, mainly taught by parents applying their guidance and influence. Freud's theory implies that the super-ego is a symbolic internalisation of the father figure and cultural regulations. The super-ego tends to stand in opposition to the desires of the id because of their conflicting objectives, and its aggressiveness towards the ego. The super-ego acts as the conscience, maintaining our sense of morality and proscription from taboos.

    Id: The id is the disorganized part of the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the only component of personality that is present from birth. The id is the part of the mind containing the drives present at birth; it is the source of our bodily needs, wants, desires, and impulses, particularly our sexual and aggressive drives. The id operates according to the pleasure principle, the psychic force that motivates the tendency to seek immediate gratification of any impulse. The id contains the libido, which is the primary source of instinctual force that is unresponsive to the demands of reality. The id acts according to the "pleasure principle", seeking to avoid pain or unpleasure (not 'displeasure') aroused by increases in instinctual tension.
    In the first and third quotes, ego was used in vernacular terms. In the second quote, I used Freudian terms.

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    Senior Member Array SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If you're running into INTJs that are standing around saying, "I told you so," and not helping with putting out the fire, might I respectfully submit that maybe they aren't INTJs, but perhaps INTPs?
    Amen. INTP's are more "big picture" oriented, and a healthy round of "I told you so" is more of a long term strategic move (in addition to being emotionally satisfying). Getting busy with fixing the problem is a tactical approach and as such more likely to be favored by an INTJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Are you talking about INTJs, or do you actually have a few real life people in mind? Also don't discount the possibility that such INTJs you might be dealing with are simply bored and saying things just to annoy you. Particularly on forums, there are those INTJs that are fairly laid back, and others which like to say things in such a way as to start fights and see what happens.


    Of course, if there is a fire, you put it out. The INTJ gets upset when he points out the faulty electrical wiring that isn't up to code, and everyone else is like, "So? That's the way it has always been."

    If you're running into INTJs that are standing around saying, "I told you so," and not helping with putting out the fire, might I respectfully submit that maybe they aren't INTJs, but perhaps INTPs?
    Your fire prevention example was very interesting. Hey, if you can solve the problem before it exists, then its negative effects don't happen, or at least with less force and frequency.

    Perhaps the same phenomenon can be observed in the news. When alarming disasters happen, everyone loses their minds, and they focus way too much on the event rather than on countering what causes them. If the problem is largely psychological for instance, then maybe we should direct more concentration towards helping the mentally deranged to refine their worldviews, and not just ignore them until they blow something up.

    But I'm not sure why INTJs would be the only people in all of the 16 types that think about these things. Maybe more of them do so, and with better ability, but that doesn't mean there aren't other types that could achieve the same with greater effort, INTPs or anyone else!

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    INTJs are very independent people, they don't really look for the approval of others.

    If you're not out to get something, you may not get it, but nor will you care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    But I'm not sure why INTJs would be the only people in all of the 16 types that think about these things. Maybe more of them do so, and with better ability, but that doesn't mean there aren't other types that could achieve the same with greater effort, INTPs or anyone else!
    Actually, Z Buck (INFJ) quoted one of my statements in this thread over in her blog, pointing out several similarities with how she perceived the world, so it is perhaps more of an "Ni" thing than an "INTJ" thing. The main difference is that INFJs tend to be much better than INTJs at fitting in socially in spite of sharing that worldview.

    INTPs are also quite good at spotting things that others don't see, but 1) it's a different set of things, and 2) if Ti sees it, then it can (eventually) be stated in a concrete, logical way. What Ni sees is neither concrete, nor logical, but might be regarded as "connections" or perhaps "cause and effect".

    When others demand that Ni "prove it", the Ni dom points at the world, makes a prediction, and it happens, and then those others say, "Well, you were right, but that was just luck. You didn't prove anything." After enough interactions like that, we just shut up and do things our own way, and limit what we say to what other people will believe, as it is pointless to explain "why" to people who simply don't SEE the things that you're watching. It's how oracles and prophets get their reputations. There's no magic, here, though - just a different and rare way of looking at the world.

    One of the things I like about physics and the hard sciences is that the laws of physics are very much like the principles that Ni sees in other areas of life. We can never actually "prove" that the laws of physics are true, and we can't know why they work the way they do, BUT we can systematically demonstrate that the laws of physics are accurate, and it isn't simply a matter of "luck" that they make correct predictions within whatever margin of error. Now, imagine being able to see these kinds of laws in operation in other areas of human interest, whether in the workplace, between people, or perhaps on the larger scale, in politics, in economics. These things are often too intangible to even begin to write formulas to prove, and even when they are that tangible, they're often too complex to include all of the variables and factors needed to analyze in a systematic way.

    An example of such a law? Consider the law of supply and demand in economics. It's a really basic law, even obvious if you think about it. Yet many politicians and rulers continue to make decisions as if the law of supply and demand did not exist. Why? Because it really cannot be proven. Even if you do an experiment that shows that it is true, not all supply and demand curves are the same, and thus we can never rule out the possibility that in some cases, the curve is flat, with supply and demand having no effect on price at all. The ruler believes that one can simply rule that the price will be constant, regardless of supply or demand, the side effect being that with the price constant, it is supply and demand that change instead of price.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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