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  1. #331
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That's the problem.
    Btw, I was exposed to a black man last week . . . what an intimidating fella. Those black people need to work on being less intimidating.

    See how that works?
    Ok Ok....I have now read amargith's response to this.

    (Just want to put it out there that everything that I'm about to say should be read in a genuine tone.)

    So it seems we should start from scratch? That would be what I assume if you are finding her perceptions to be invalid.

    The thing is amargith is leading the blind. ha ha

    We asked why do people get intimidated by intj's... Now I don't know if coriolis was playing devils advocate and really knows the answer or not, but either way we are looking for more perspective.

    So is Amargith the designated speaker for all of the population out there, no, but I'm sure she relates to more of the population than intj's.

    And she does have personal insight as to why a feeler in general would be intimidated by intj's. And being that she's the only one that responded to that question, it's like we have no choice but to take her answer as at least having some relevance.

    Even hypothetically if she was fighting with her boyfriend (which is not the case...and by people saying that, I was a little shocked...because that's attacking her character) she still is giving relevant info.

    We just have to know when to call bs.

    So I have thought about the comparison with intj's and black people some more. I still find it a little difficult. Black people have skin on the outside of their body showing that they're black. Intj's don't have anything on their skin telling others that they're intj's, and not everyone knows what mbti is. Amargith is talking about when a stranger meets an intj for the first time and how they can come off as intimidating for all those reasons.

    So we know from the numbers that there's more "others" than there are intj's.

    Meaning statistically you are asking the majority of people to say to themselves "Huh, maybe I should give this person a chance even though it goes against everything I have ever done. Maybe I don't need to take in the social cues from this person and I'll just ignore my feelings completely."

    That's unrealistic. And unfair to ask others. Other people enjoy and rely on their feelings. And the other people make up the majority of people.

    So because it's not a realistic thing to ask all of the world to change, amargith is saying there are a few things intj's could do to improve their interactions so that they don't intimidate others unconsciously. (She's part of the majority because she's not intj, and she's part of an even smaller minority than intj's because she understands how they work, and is willing to translate both sides to each other.)


    Even if you don't respond, I just wanted to clear that up because I value both yours and amargith's responses. And if you're calling bs on amargith, I disagree, because I fail to see why. I think she did her best to explain why she understands where others are coming from.

    (Now if you're questioning how well she actually relates to the majority of people...then I could understand why you could call bs...cause evidence-wise I have no proof on how she relates to others irl, and I don't look for that criteria when reading her online posts...BUT even still that's all negated by the fact that she's an Fi aux....)

    So in conclusion, I think that if you read her posts a certain way...they may come off as her opinions....but if that's so, I don't think that they're just heropinions. She's relating to the majority of people that are not intj's and by doing that she is giving us a taste of reality.

    Even though it's not fair that the majority judges intj's by their outer lack of social etiquette, it doesn't make it not true.

  2. #332
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue350 View Post
    Because scientists are stupid
    Right. Scientists are stupid.
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  3. #333

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    And if you're calling bs, I disagree, because I fail to see why.
    The rantings of jilted lovers, who claim to have dated INTJs, are not what I would consider credible evidence.
    Think.

  4. #334
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The rantings of jilted lovers, who claim to have dated INTJs, are not what I would consider credible evidence.
    I am still not reading her posts like this. I find this kind of laughable. Must be some emotional tone I'm missing.

    I didn't think there was any jilted-ness in her posts.

    If you think she has mistyped her bf, then that's a different story.

    But she's still with said "intj"...meaning that she is coming from an "I'm in a relationship with an intj, and it was ruff at first, but now we have a system" point of view. I don't think she's projecting. Actually sounds like a nice relationship because it sounds like a give an take relationship. Seems like they both had to put energy into it to make it work though, not just the intj. I don't know that I would go as far as to say she loves all intjs, but she certainly doesn't seem like she's bashing them. Especially not from a jilted pov.

  5. #335

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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Right. Scientists are stupid.
    If you take into account that there are multiple intelligences, then yes, scientists are stupid. Just like the rest of us.

  6. #336
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue350 View Post
    If you take into account that there are multiple intelligences, then yes, scientists are stupid. Just like the rest of us.
    My apologies. I didn't realize you'd met them all and knew all the ways in which each individual was or wasn't intelligent. And, also apparently, that they were all... INTJs? Carry on.
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  7. #337
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    But most importantly, our species is a collaborative one. And it is the failure or refusal or unawareness of the need to establish an actual rapport to foster even the most basic trust between you and your tribesmen that is at the base of their response to you, and at the base for their - imho at least somewhat legitimate - perception of you being a potential threat.

    Its kind of normal to be part of the group and demonstrate that you are as a social animal so others know where they stand with you, and what to expect from you. And that natural need and communication of that kind of basic reassurance seems to pass you by. Which in turn is likely to get you the 'who the fuck are you response fom assertive people and fear, paranoia and avoidance from those that are conflict avoided.

    in essence, you're depriving them now of two pieces of information: the information you get through Ni about the situation, and information as to their status with you (Fe information). Lack of information can get you killed. And someone who seems to be deliberately withholding that information from you doesn't exactly inspire a lot of trust, so the INTjs ulterior motives and agendas will be speculated on to make up for the gap in information they're creating.
    How far does simple courtesy go in fostering that rapport, or being part of the group? By that I mean the usual things like being on time, keeping promises, avoiding insulting language, looking people in the eye and hearing them out? None of this requires that we divulge information ourselves, though we often do when it makes sense. It seems when people learn that we mean what we say and we keep our commitments, that should go far in making us seem less threatening. Of course, they have to get to know us at least a little to develop this track record. A first impression might go more as you described.

    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Does Coriolis have Fe and not Fi?
    Nope. Tert Fi, but Fe way down in the preferences - just like most folks who identify with INTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    There is this thing that sometimes I run across people who think I have these devious motives or hidden agendas. When I say something, they think I really mean something else. It's maddening because I am a pretty honest and direct person. I say what I mean. I'm not a BS'er at all. If I say something, you can pretty much take it exactly at face value.
    Exactly. I feel the same way. It amazes me how people can still make these assumptions even after months of seeing that is not how we operate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    To follow the example I gave....what would you say that you would do in a situation that you got interrupted by someone when you were deep in the middle of solving a pretty heavy problem? I would like to be able to learn a behavior that could maybe help aid the other person in understanding that I acknowledge them, but one in that I don't completely lose my thought.
    I dislike interruptions as well, perhaps even more as an introvert. If the interruption is by email or phone, I just ignore it. If someone comes in person, I judge the urgency of the situation, and sometimes ask them to come back later, or tell them I will find them later. Sometimes, however, they are just the person I was trying to track down about something else, so I tolerate the interruption to take advantage of their presence, and take care of the other business while I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    We asked why do people get intimidated by intj's... Now I don't know if coriolis was playing devils advocate and really knows the answer or not, but either way we are looking for more perspective.
    I'm not playing devil's advocate, or even disagreeing with @Amargith. I am asking for clarification, because this is something I have long wondered about, and sense an opportunity here finally to get to the bottom of it. I know that INTJs are often described as intimidating, and of all the (sometimes negative) adjectives applied to us, this is the one I have least understood. I've only rarely been told it myself, but if someone finds me intimidating, perhaps they will hesitate to admit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    So I have thought about the comparison with intj's and black people some more. I still find it a little difficult. Black people have skin on the outside of their body showing that they're black. Intj's don't have anything on their skin telling others that they're intj's, and not everyone knows what mbti is. Amargith is talking about when a stranger meets an intj for the first time and how they can come off as intimidating for all those reasons.
    The comparison with blacks is fair to the extent that, in both cases, the fear is based largely on stereotypes. Occasionally there is some basis for it, but often there is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Meaning statistically you are asking the majority of people to say to themselves "Huh, maybe I should give this person a chance even though it goes against everything I have ever done. Maybe I don't need to take in the social cues from this person and I'll just ignore my feelings completely."

    That's unrealistic. And unfair to ask others. Other people enjoy and rely on their feelings. And the other people make up the majority of people.
    But you (generalized) will expect INTJs to say to themselves, "maybe I should give this person a chance, even though it goes against everything that makes sense to me or I value. Maybe I should take the time to learn what their social cues mean, and the feelings they are expressing". The two perspectives are not equivalent for this reason. These "other people" [feelers] actually are expressing feelings and using social cues to convey important information. The INTJ probably isn't. If the other person presses ahead trying to look for social cues in the usual manner, they risk reading into the INTJs behavior meaning and feeling that isn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Even though it's not fair that the majority judges intj's by their outer lack of social etiquette, it doesn't make it not true.
    Well, as an INTJ, I often judge people by their lack of . . . not sure what to call it. People who can't keep appointments, show up late, don't respond to calls/email, don't follow through on what they promise to do, and otherwise don't consider the effects of their actions (actions, mind you, not words) on others. To me, that is rude, and I try as much as possible not to do these things myself. It seems that should earn me at least some goodwill from others. Much of what passes for "social etiquette" seems so superficial and inconsequential compared with all that.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 11-26-2013 at 11:05 PM. Reason: fixed quoting error
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  8. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    There is this thing that sometimes I run across people who think I have these devious motives or hidden agendas. When I say something, they think I really mean something else. It's maddening because I am a pretty honest and direct person. I say what I mean. I'm not a BS'er at all. If I say something, you can pretty much take it exactly at face value.
    Ni has a double resonance effect. It happens to me all the time, although sometimes I do use double and sometimes triple entendres, primarily when flirting or bantering.

  9. #339
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How far does simple courtesy go in fostering that rapport, or being part of the group? By that I mean the usual things like being on time, keeping promises, avoiding insulting language, looking people in the eye and hearing them out? None of this requires that we divulge information ourselves, though we often do when it makes sense. It seems when people learn that we mean what we say and we keep our commitments, that should go far in making us seem less threatening. Of course, they have to get to know us at least a little to develop this track record. A first impression might go more as you described.

    Exactly. I feel the same way. It amazes me how people can still make these assumptions even after months of seeing that is not how we operate.
    This second paragraph makes me believe that other people are not reacting to you the way you want them to. Even if you are on time and keep your promises and what not? Or do you think that the first and second paragraph don't have anything to do with one another?

    I dislike interruptions as well, perhaps even more as an introvert. If the interruption is by email or phone, I just ignore it. If someone comes in person, I judge the urgency of the situation, and sometimes ask them to come back later, or tell them I will find them later. Sometimes, however, they are just the person I was trying to track down about something else, so I tolerate the interruption to take advantage of their presence, and take care of the other business while I can.
    ditto on this.

    The only thing is that my job I currently have is .... lets just use the word ridiculous with interruptions. The worst is when I'm on the phone with a guest and a co-worker will start asking me a question. I have gotten to the point where I get so enraged that I interrupt the guest and will ask them to hold because I have someone trying to get my attention. Don't care. It's I don't give a fuck o'clock at that point. Stop interrupting me people. That kinda situation makes me be a stereotypical NTJ... because at that moment I really think my co-worker is a moron...I'm sorry...I know it's not right to think that but I get so angry...ugh...and this type of situation happens a lot...I would say at least 3-4 times a shift. I probably shouldn't get so enraged but I just don't understand...if it's not important...why are you interrupting me when I'm with a customer... So in this situation I DO intimidate people on purpose...cause I have asked them, and now it's gotten to the point where I warn them, all the time to write their questions down while I'm on the phone. Or JUST LOOK to see if I'm on the phone before you yell my name 4 times (I think they're just attention wh*res -_-) I'm getting mad just talking about this now. sighs. It's crap like this that makes me think poorly of myself and others. Why can't we compromise people? I have asked them what I can do to better the situation. But there seems to be no way to effectively compromise that's good enough to them. *shrugs*

    The comparison with blacks is fair to the extent that, in both cases, the fear is based largely on stereotypes. Occasionally there is some basis for it, but often there is not.
    Yea, I FINALLY realized the comparison after writing the last sentence to jaguar. ha ha

    But you (generalized) will expect INTJs to say to themselves, "maybe I should give this person a chance, even though it goes against everything that makes sense to me or I value. Maybe I should take the time to learn what their social cues mean, and the feelings they are expressing". The two perspectives are not equivalent for this reason. These "other people" [feelers] actually are expressing feelings and using social cues to convey important information. The INTJ probably isn't. If the other person presses ahead trying to look for social cues in the usual manner, they risk reading into the INTJs behavior meaning and feeling that isn't there.
    Now here you do point out a good reason as to why this is debatable. I think that you're overanalyzing it again. But that's great. I like that you do that. ha ha Like I said before though...I don't think that the majority of people are gonna know that you're "pretending to fake it till you make it" (for lack of better words) only you know. And I think as you have said before in another thread, there are lines you aren't willing to cross. So it depends on how much you care I guess. If you care enough to make the social cues and say hi to everyone, smile, make eye contact, etc...then you'll do it...but if you value being more true to yourself in that particular way over other peoples' impressions of you, then who cares if they're intimidated by you? I think it's a personal choice left up to the individual.

    That being said...I still think that it's not a bad thing if people take (even if it's only a little) responsibility for how others are seeing them. It is after all something that's sometimes unconscious. Sometimes just making a little conscious effort can change a situation. And again only if you care about how others are seeing you, though.

    Well, as an INTJ, I often judge people by their lack of . . . not sure what to call it. People who can't keep appointments, show up late, don't respond to calls/email, don't follow through on what they promise to do, and otherwise don't consider the effects of their actions (actions, mind you, not words) on others. To me, that is rude, and I try as much as possible not to do these things myself. It seems that should earn me at least some goodwill from others. Much of what passes for "social etiquette" seems so superficial and inconsequential compared with all that.
    May I ask...and don't take this as sarcastic...do you know your language? ....cause that's what this sounds like to me. Seems like you prefer acts of service maybe? And it doesn't just refer to intimate relationships...it refers to all relationships. I find that if I incorporate all 5 languages into my daily interactions then it's easier for me to get people to like me.

    (And that stuff's not superficial to an Fe dom btws. It's very much the reasonable action they see as a way of judging others.)

  10. #340
    Freyja's Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The rantings of jilted lovers, who claim to have dated INTJs, are not what I would consider credible evidence.
    We ve been together for almost 15 years and are still going strong. Where did you get the impression he jilted me? I love him for being who he is, including the not so social part. It was not an issue past the first misunderstanding.

    ***********+
    Edit: will get back to those with the longer posts that quoted or mentioned me later; on an iphone atm.
    Last edited by Amargith; 12-02-2013 at 12:41 PM.
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