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  1. #311
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Because of Te.

    You state things in an objective, detached and unmovable way. And in the proccess you come off rigid. allknowing, arrogant and narrowminded. Just like Fe for that matter. You do not seem open to discussing alternatives though youre likely more up for it than a Ti user would be. There is a certain 'this is the way things are ' which is amplified times ten by your succinctness and lack of focus on the social realm - in other words, your focus is on the situation youre discussing and not on the communication youre autopiloting, leaving the other person feeling like an ant encountering a boot. More over, Ni isnt exactly something most people have access to AND it makes you guys SUCK at both realising youre not providing the other person with enough information to verifiy the conclusion as well as suck at elaborating when specifically asked.

    And if that aint enough, your general love for efficieny, execution, addressing a problem, and intolerance for what you consider endless debate, inane questions and repetition, not to mention general indifference as to whether the other person agrees with you and general tendency to consider people useless or morons when they cannot reach -to you - obvious conclusions doesnt exactly do much to rectify your impatient, mystically allknowing yet callous, ruthless, competently dangerous evil overlord impression. Its hard to predict something you do not understand and is potentially too hard and harmful to scout. And when such things cannot be avoided, they fit the definition of a trigger of stress perfectly. Iow, its the definition of the worst type of obstacle you can encounter.

    In short: your competence coupled with access to knowledge you seem to pull out of thin air and your apparent unwillingness to share that source as well as your generally perceived disregard for accountability to others on top of your unwillingness to prioritize the person in your communication raise a red flag. Its a culmination of little things.

    And dont take this badly, but they are the traits of a lethal predator. Istps suffer from the same problem,btw.

    Still wondering why people are intimidated, scared or at the very least uncomfortable and mildly offended when talking to you?

    It's posts like this that make me glad that I'm on this forum. Those are insightful observations and very helpful. I think you understand INTJs in a deeper way than anyone else here. Or at least, you have the uncanny combination of deep insight as to what they are like as well as how they are perceived by others. That has to be quite a gift to the INTJ you are with because it would make him feel both understood as well as supporting his growth and development.

    The one point I would disagree with is that we don't (or I don't) think people are morons or useless. I do often think they're wrong. A lot of times, in the moment, I might seemed closed to what somebody says but in fact, I did hear every single word and am mulling it over and considering it quite a lot afterwards and then can change my views. Though I have confidence in the opinions that I express because I've typically given them a lot of thought, I do realize that I'm not always right.

    What is this predator stuff you are talking about though? I have no idea what you mean here. Oh wait, it's here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Fear of the unknown is certainly a factor.

    People dont like talking to a predator. It is a stupid thing to do. They might use what you say against you- especially if they seem to only need a little information and somehow magically get a hold of the rest. For that matter, even if youre secure enough that you can handle yourself, is not fun to endure that kind of conversation where yoy feel like the ant.Not to mention its a fucking useless convo as they refuse to share the info and make you feel like a moron in the process.

    But most importantly, our species is a collaborative one. And it is the failure or refusal or unawareness of the need to establish an actual rapport to foster even the most basic trust between you and your tribesmen that is at the base of their response to you, and at the base for their - imho at least somewhat legitimate - perception of you being a potential threat.

    People pleasing and accomodation is the norm in a multi-individualed culture like ours - one you dont even seem aware of or if you are, you seem to indicate that all the bending and flexing should come from the other person. That kind of behavior is normally only employed when there is no time to argue and people are expected to fall in line for their own good -and preferably by a leader who has already proven he has the groups wellbeing in mind and has earned goodwill from most of the people there. It s an almost instinctual response. So what is it the intj is seeing but not sharing that requires this falling in line - especially as building goodwill is bypassed. It must be urgent and important as he seems quite serious, adamant, confident about this and competent.

    And, can i trust him at all, considering the conversation gave me the feeling that im just a pawn to him anyways. A stupid one at that. Is my wellbeing even considered by this person or am i just collateral damage. Iow, the herdlike insecurity you -as an intj- cause in a person can target their self esteem, their sense of safety, cause paranoia and other fears. Which in turn leads to resentment and feeling like a fool making you the asshole who stressed them apparently just for fun, just coz you couldnt take two seconds, focus on the connection with the person in front of you, establish some goodwill through that warm focus and make them realise you do recognize them as one of your own instead of as an object, prey or cannon fodder.

    Its kind of normal to be part of the group and demonstrate that you are as a social animal so others know where they stand with you, and what to expect from you. And that natural need and communication of that kind of basic reassurance seems to pass you by. Which in turn is likely to get you the 'who the fuck are you response fom assertive people and fear, paranoia and avoidance from those that are conflict avoided.

    in essence, you're depriving them now of two pieces of information: the information you get through Ni about the situation, and information as to their status with you (Fe information). Lack of information can get you killed. And someone who seems to be deliberately withholding that information from you doesn't exactly inspire a lot of trust, so the INTjs ulterior motives and agendas will be speculated on to make up for the gap in information they're creating.

    It's the difference between being invited to an audience with the Godfather, with you sitting down in front of him and him staring you down as he lays out how it's going to be - without informing you what he intends to do with you afterwards, and having a friendly chat with someone you just met who is smiling and inviting you to sit right next to her on a bench. You bet it is threatening and intimidating.

    Disclaimer: this is meant as a description of what goes on between people who don't know each other and in a situation where the INTJ would not naturally show warmth towards this person - because he is too young/unaware to use Fi properly, too preoccupied with the situation, too new to this person to display any warmth yet, whatever it be - and a person who expects at least some rapport - be it coz it is a group setting, or a personal setting. Business is often the dominion of Te and there this kind of interaction usually works better as the hierarchy isn't established by group or personal connections; it's established by the position you hold in the company (though even there you can encounter the problem with colleagues in a more informal setting, like during a lunch break).
    Again, brilliant stuff. This perspective is very interesting.

    There is this thing that sometimes I run across people who think I have these devious motives or hidden agendas. When I say something, they think I really mean something else. It's maddening because I am a pretty honest and direct person. I say what I mean. I'm not a BS'er at all. If I say something, you can pretty much take it exactly at face value. Given that I'm an Enneagram 6, I'm probably not the typical INTJ. I do establish trusting relationships with people. I came to realize at one point in my life just how incredibly important that is and I work to moderate my natural behavior to establish the kind of loyal relationships with others that I seem to need.

    Re the 4th paragraph, I could be interpreting this incorrectly but it seems like this might be a bit personal to you. That is, you're expressing anger/frustration that the INTJ you know isn't acting in the way that you think he should. I read over 20 years ago that the single key factor in an INTJs success was how effectively they developed their social skills. I have worked very hard at getting better at these things for the entirety of my adult life and my job has forced me to retain a focus on it. As someone who has worked on that stuff for a very long time, you have to understand that changing your behavior and who you naturally are, interaction style wise, is not an easy thing to do.

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  2. #312
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    I thought all predators were INFPs...

    I mean, look at the unconventional way they flip their hair...



    Such seduction. Wow.

  3. #313
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's posts like this that make me glad that I'm on this forum. Those are insightful observations and very helpful. I think you understand INTJs in a deeper way than anyone else here. Or at least, you have the uncanny combination of deep insight as to what they are like as well as how they are perceived by others. That has to be quite a gift to the INTJ you are with because it would make him feel both understood as well as supporting his growth and development.

    The one point I would disagree with is that we don't (or I don't) think people are morons or useless. I do often think they're wrong. A lot of times, in the moment, I might seemed closed to what somebody says but in fact, I did hear every single word and am mulling it over and considering it quite a lot afterwards and then can change my views. Though I have confidence in the opinions that I express because I've typically given them a lot of thought, I do realize that I'm not always right.
    People report that I make them feel stupid. But it isn't my intention, and I don't think they are stupid. Maybe that is how they feel when they interact with me. Also I don't interact with intellectuals only, as another member tried to point out. People seem to miss, that we change our views, so that by the next time they see us, we changed and they see us as erratic, not making any sense etc. I wonder if it has something to do with how we carry over the information. Perhaps I make it sound like that is the ultimate be all, end all.

  4. #314
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    What's to like?

    -Snobby; self-absorbed
    -Atrocious social skills
    -Esoteric/strange hobbies
    -VASTLY overestimates own intelligence
    -Weirdos; can't fit in, not wanted, etc.

    I could keep going if you'd like.

  5. #315
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    What's to like?

    -Snobby; self-absorbed
    -Atrocious social skills
    -Esoteric/strange hobbies
    -VASTLY overestimates own intelligence
    -Weirdos; can't fit in, not wanted, etc.

    I could keep going if you'd like.
    I see you are running out of cocktails.

  6. #316
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I thought all predators were INFPs...

    I mean, look at the unconventional way they flip their hair...



    Such seduction. Wow.
    Oh, INFP's are only scary if you (knowingly or not) get on their bad side.

    Right?

  7. #317
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's posts like this that make me glad that I'm on this forum. Those are insightful observations and very helpful. I think you understand INTJs in a deeper way than anyone else here. Or at least, you have the uncanny combination of deep insight as to what they are like as well as how they are perceived by others. That has to be quite a gift to the INTJ you are with because it would make him feel both understood as well as supporting his growth and development.

    The one point I would disagree with is that we don't (or I don't) think people are morons or useless. I do often think they're wrong. A lot of times, in the moment, I might seemed closed to what somebody says but in fact, I did hear every single word and am mulling it over and considering it quite a lot afterwards and then can change my views. Though I have confidence in the opinions that I express because I've typically given them a lot of thought, I do realize that I'm not always right.

    What is this predator stuff you are talking about though? I have no idea what you mean here. Oh wait, it's here...



    Again, brilliant stuff. This perspective is very interesting.

    There is this thing that sometimes I run across people who think I have these devious motives or hidden agendas. When I say something, they think I really mean something else. It's maddening because I am a pretty honest and direct person. I say what I mean. I'm not a BS'er at all. If I say something, you can pretty much take it exactly at face value. Given that I'm an Enneagram 6, I'm probably not the typical INTJ. I do establish trusting relationships with people. I came to realize at one point in my life just how incredibly important that is and I work to moderate my natural behavior to establish the kind of loyal relationships with others that I seem to need.

    Re the 4th paragraph, I could be interpreting this incorrectly but it seems like this might be a bit personal to you. That is, you're expressing anger/frustration that the INTJ you know isn't acting in the way that you think he should. I read over 20 years ago that the single key factor in an INTJs success was how effectively they developed their social skills. I have worked very hard at getting better at these things for the entirety of my adult life and my job has forced me to retain a focus on it. As someone who has worked on that stuff for a very long time, you have to understand that changing your behavior and who you naturally are, interaction style wise, is not an easy thing to do.
    Thank you for taking my posts the way I was hoping to communicate them - as earnest feedback. It's one of the most admirable skills of INTJs - to take criticism, harsh criticism the way it was meant without getting defensive. And thank you for the kind words, they are very much appreciated

    Wrt to the moron-part: perhaps it was not clear from my formulation but I left it open as to whether INTJs actually believe it or not - I know younger ones often are still more likely to label others retards in their frustration and that once they mature a little, they re more likely to be perceived judging others that way, while the truth is often a different story.

    As for the personal nature of the 4th paragraph:

    tbh, I have no bad experiences with INTJs, so no, it isn't personal to my knowledge. I have seen it first hand happen in the interactions with my INTJ, as well as on here between INTJs and other types, and I do understand what those other people are reacting to.

    Perhaps I infused it with too much emotion though, in an effort to drive that pivotal point home, as it is the one thing I see INTJs struggle most with to grasp. They are so comfortable in trusting only in themselves, doing everything themselves and being disappointed by the world when forced to collaborate that they often find it hard to fathom that not *EVERYONE* works that way. Others rely on those other people, on that trust that is forged, for their sense of security, and yes, knowing their place in that world, as well as building up their self-esteem. They gain their strength from the fact that they are good at communication, working collaboratively and standing together as a tribe. And for them, talking to an INTJ is like talking to a mute person wearing a mask and holding a kitchen knife. Hell, for all you know it could be he is gonna use it to chop carrots but the lack of access to familiar body language and ease of communication to break the ice and gauge what kind of danger you're in....disconcerting at best. There is no way of knowing that if you turn your back, he won't plant it in there, just for the heck of it. And constantly being vigilant is, for people who rely on building bridges and trust, exhausting as they divert their energy elsewhere and often do not thrive in a secure but isolated environment.

    As stated though, I recognise that many INTJs naturally grow into their Fi and break through that wall of silence, and I bet they too notice the difference as to the relief and level of comfort people feel when around them.

    Edit: to address your last paragraph: I'm highly aware that adapting your perspective and adjusting knee-jerk reactions is a painful, long road despite its many rewards. And perhaps I do sort of suffer from the dominant perspective syndrome (Ne-dom: see all angles!) in the way that I preach broadening your perspective to include that of others occasionally and ironically. Im...aware of it. And I'm working on it

    I try to just raise awareness and leave the decision on whether or not it is worth the effort to the other person. All I can do is point and ask if they've considered it.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  8. #318
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    People report that I make them feel stupid. But it isn't my intention, and I don't think they are stupid. Maybe that is how they feel when they interact with me. Also I don't interact with intellectuals only, as another member tried to point out. People seem to miss, that we change our views, so that by the next time they see us, we changed and they see us as erratic, not making any sense etc. I wonder if it has something to do with how we carry over the information. Perhaps I make it sound like that is the ultimate be all, end all.
    I have a good friend that I've known since college who I recently discovered was an INTJ. The type definitely fits. The interesting thing is that I find myself affected by him in the same way that people describe here. His reactions/responses to what I say at times make me feel like he feels that I am stupid. I doubt he intends this but it's how it comes across. When we get into that kind of interaction, it makes me feel like he is stupid then, for thinking I am stupid, because he is the one being stupid .

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  9. #319
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    A simple 'let's shift perspective where we adjust a, b and c variables to get y' can help.

  10. #320
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    To follow the example I gave....what would you say that you would do in a situation that you got interrupted by someone when you were deep in the middle of solving a pretty heavy problem? I would like to be able to learn a behavior that could maybe help aid the other person in understanding that I acknowledge them, but one in that I don't completely lose my thought.

    Or maybe Ni doms don't lose their thought as much as Ni aux?
    I get annoyed. I try to temper this though because in the vast majority of cases, interacting with people is generally more important than whatever thing I was in deep thought about.

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