[INTJ] Why do people hate INTJs?

[WhoCares]

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION],

I choose to be solo in life because it's easier for me, not because I'm butthurt or too prideful to ask for help. As a socially orientated person you find people enlivening. I find them draining in every possible way. People take more from me than they ever give quite honestly. To watch another person make a hash of a job I can do blindfolded is painful and it takes more time and energy on my part to clean up after them than to just get the job done properly in the first place.

I work in a people job and meet approx 300 new people a day. I took this job with the idea of developing my people skills and understanding others more. It was a test to see if all that 'you've gotta work with others' advice was really worthwhile. In 6 years of doing this I think I have a pretty good sample set to go from. From what I've experienced most people....

- Dump their issues on you and try to make them your issues.
- Fail to plan or provide for themselves and try to make that your issue.
- Piss and moan like a 5yr old regardless of how old they really are as soon as they don't get their way.
- Spend prodigious amounts of time trying to take chips off the self esteem of everyone around them so they can feel better about themselves.
- Recruit others to their cause so they can oust whomever they see as an obstacle to getting their way.
- Put enormous energy into excuses for why they cannot or should not be doing something.
- Spend more time doing the above than getting anything useful done.

I'm actually quite successful at this job, but I dont enjoy it. And I have never had such a low view of humanity as I have now. I have come to the conclusion that in the main my desire to be solo was a good choice and that I am not missing out. In my job the dominant personaity type is a socially orientated, empathic person. And on the whole I find these people put more time and energy into their personal hatreds and petty issues than in getting the job they are paid to do, done. I find it annoying and counter productive.

Perhaps it would be helpful for society to accept that the solo person isn't a social reject in need of rehabilitation but that it can be a viable personal choice for people who do not receive much benefit from other people's company. I spend all day being diplomatic and understanding and coaxing goodwill out of reluctant individuals. I'm capable of being perfectly lovely and quite charming when it suits me. But I dont have to on here, what I project here is the frustrated and exhausted side of me venting. And this is how I feel most days I've had to endure an overload of other people.

 

[anticlimatic]

Ti is as much or more anit-Fe than Fi.

My Ti and Fe get along just fine. There's a lot of people who are both Ti and Fe-- but no one who is both Fe and Fi.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'd be curious to hear if there are any INTJs who aren't also e5 who have this thing with needing independence going on.

 

[Coriolis]

Not "contradictory", just opposite sides of the same coin. Being strong in one aspect makes you vulnerable in its opposite. Being strongly self-reliant makes you less able to take advantage of the strengths of working with others. Being very good at working with others means that if you cannot take advantage of others, you've not only lost that strength, but you haven't developed much in the way of self-reliance.

For my part, while I don't try to be particularly good at working with others, I try to be marginally competent at it, so that when push comes to shove, I'm not totally lost.

The first paragraph is all true. It just means none of us is going to be good at everything or have time and energy to develop every skill. There is nothing wrong, indeed there seems little alternative, in picking and choosing where one wants to focus one's efforts. The only wrong is expecting everyone to operate the same way.

I am fairly competent at professional networking, which is why I excepted it from my earlier comments. It is social networking, or just plain socializing that I avoid as unpleasant and unproductive.

I dont think I would have believed someone 2 years ago if they said we are not just dependant or independant creatures, we are interdependent.

Pure independace is an illusion. Same thing with pure dependance.

In that way...yes it seems contradicting...but its because we live in a dualistic world. Where things do not soley live without another.

I think I also believe that if u get all your success accomplished half way through your life and have no one to share it with then we have missed the point. Isnt that losing sight of the big picture?

You don't have to be a social butterfly to have a SO and a few close friends/family to share your life with. Even most hard-core introverts have that. Nor does one need to deny our fundamental interdependence to have a low opinion for conventional socializing. Just look at how we meet our basic needs. Most people don't grow the bulk of what they eat, or make their own clothing and household goods. We pay for these things using money earned at a job, for an employer; or if self-employed, by providing goods or services to clients. Clearly, a vast array of other people are needed for all this to happen. Little if any of it, however, requires socializing.

 

[WhoCares]

I think I also believe that if u get all your success accomplished half way through your life and have no one to share it with then we have missed the point. Isnt that losing sight of the big picture?

Thats assuming that there is no joy or satisfaction to be had in suceeding for yourself. It also assumes that others in your life will be pleased for your success.

 

[Evo]

Thats assuming that there is no joy or satisfaction to be had in suceeding for yourself. It also assumes that others in your life will be pleased for your success.

Ah ha, perfect, yes it is assuming those things to be true. However if these things are not what the INTJ cares about in the end...then the reasons "why other people hate INTJ's" are irrelevant.

That's what I mean when I said a couple pages ago, that it's up to the INTJ, about how much they really care about that stuff. If they don't care, then it doesn't matter why others don't like them, and if it doesn't matter why others don't like them then defining the problems between oneself and others fades away. Which is a personal choice of who you're going to let in or not.

The first paragraph is all true. It just means none of us is going to be good at everything or have time and energy to develop every skill. There is nothing wrong, indeed there seems little alternative, in picking and choosing where one wants to focus one's efforts. The only wrong is expecting everyone to operate the same way.

I am fairly competent at professional networking, which is why I excepted it from my earlier comments. It is social networking, or just plain socializing that I avoid as unpleasant and unproductive.

I will not argue with you that it's unpleasant. It's REALLY unpleasant some of the time, actually.

But if you are saying it is unproductive, then to me that means that you are not aquiring favorable results from interactions. Which it kinda leads me to believe that you may not be going into each interaction with the goal to gain perspective. Which if that's so, in that case, it's ignoring the fact that every person has something to offer. That's where the productivity comes in. If you can catch a glimpse of what the person's strengths are, and those strengths just so happen to match up to whatever objective you're looking for at the time, then that interaction has been productive.

Every interaction is productive anyways cause it's a chance to learn. Especially if it's an unpleasant interaction. They are THE most revealing, in that they show you your shadows.

Clearly, a vast array of other people are needed for all this to happen. Little if any of it, however, requires socializing.

If people are needed for things to happen, then socializing is expected. I agree, it's not a requirement. However it is expected, and in that way it's sort of like you either play by the rules, or you don't. When you play by the social rules, you can get places MUCH faster than if you didn't. Even as simple as at a line in the supermarket. If that cashier is having a bad day and you make them feel like crap because some social rule wasn't followed, you could end up there forever in that line.

So I guess, again, it depends on your personal choices. Are you trying to deminsh the amount of unpleasant interactions with people, if so then you have to abide by some social rules. If you are looking to learn something from each interaction then maybe the interactions are not as unpleasant because they're productive. It all depends on where you want your energy to go. I think I lose energy when I have an unpleasant interaction, therefore I picked up some social rules, and try to treat each interaction with the expectation of learning something. And learning energizes me.

 

[uumlau]

My Ti and Fe get along just fine.

That's what your Ti wants to think.

There's a lot of people who are both Ti and Fe-- but no one who is both Fe and Fi.

But that isn't an antipathy so much as a different coin.

 

[anticlimatic]

But that isn't an antipathy so much as a different coin.

Different coins are the root of antipathy...though if this isn't the case for you, I suppose we could just hug until you see things my way.

 

[uumlau]

Different coins are the root of antipathy...though if this isn't the case for you, I suppose we could just hug until you see things my way.

Different coins are just crosstalk, not antipathy. The antipathy of which I speak is internal. If you are truly a Ti dom, then Fe strikes when you least expect it, like the Spanish Inquisition. As inferior, Ti doms don't respond to Fe most of the time, but when Fe does get through, it runs the show for a short while.

 

[anticlimatic]

Different coins are just crosstalk, not antipathy. The antipathy of which I speak is internal. If you are truly a Ti dom, then Fe strikes when you least expect it, like the Spanish Inquisition. As inferior, Ti doms don't respond to Fe most of the time, but when Fe does get through, it runs the show for a short while.

Rrrrrreally?

So you don't find any antipathy, at all, in such stereotypical Feproducts like, say-- emotional manipulation? Appeals to emotion? Guilt tripping? Or are you just more of the 'hate the soldier, pardon the commander' type of individual?

Yes, the Fesplosion is a thing. It's true. Though that isn't the sum of its function, rather it's an exception; a point in which an imbalance of pressures has forced it into critical mass. Quite often, and more normally, it functions in tandem with Ti, acting as a sort of 'coolant system' to the Ti engine, working to pacify those around us so that Ti can work at optimal performance specs. Run Ti too hard without it, and it will seize up-- and without the pressure regulator of Ti to keep Fe from A-bombing, meltdown is pretty much an eventuality at that point.

Compare the aspects to inferior Se-- sure, there's the occasional Sesplosion, wherein an inferior bearer will get drunk, go crazy dancing, and engage in reckless visceral sex-- but it also runs constantly in the background, forcing you to seek out accommodating lighting, tolerable ambient noise, and pleasant odors.

 

[Coriolis]

Ah ha, perfect, yes it is assuming those things to be true. However if these things are not what the INTJ cares about in the end...then the reasons "why other people hate INTJ's" are irrelevant.

Not at all, if the INTJ is interested in self-development. Other people, even (perhaps especially) those who hate him/her, can provide valuable input that helps the INTJ see him/herself more clearly. Any changes made as a result, however, are not to please the other person, but rather to bring the INTJ closer to his/her own standards.

But if you are saying it is unproductive, then to me that means that you are not aquiring favorable results from interactions. Which it kinda leads me to believe that you may not be going into each interaction with the goal to gain perspective. Which if that's so, in that case, it's ignoring the fact that every person has something to offer. That's where the productivity comes in. If you can catch a glimpse of what the person's strengths are, and those strengths just so happen to match up to whatever objective you're looking for at the time, then that interaction has been productive.


Every interaction is productive anyways cause it's a chance to learn. Especially if it's an unpleasant interaction. They are THE most revealing, in that they show you your shadows.

Yes to the highlighted. If they brought worthwhile results, I would have far more patience with them. Not everyone has something to offer me at the present time, any more than I might have something to offer them. And I don't need to keep repeating the same type of unpleasant interaction to learn the lesson it already might have provided the first few times. Enough is enough.

If people are needed for things to happen, then socializing is expected. I agree, it's not a requirement. However it is expected, and in that way it's sort of like you either play by the rules, or you don't. When you play by the social rules, you can get places MUCH faster than if you didn't. Even as simple as at a line in the supermarket. If that cashier is having a bad day and you make them feel like crap because some social rule wasn't followed, you could end up there forever in that line.

Socializing is NOT necessary for a business transaction, and you can avoid it without making anyone "feel like crap". How? Just be courteous, transact your business, and move on. The rules say you do your job, earn your money, pay your way, do no harm, and help out when you can. None of this requires socializing either.

If you are looking to learn something from each interaction then maybe the interactions are not as unpleasant because they're productive. It all depends on where you want your energy to go. I think I lose energy when I have an unpleasant interaction, therefore I picked up some social rules, and try to treat each interaction with the expectation of learning something. And learning energizes me.

I would like to learn something from each personal interaction, or even allow the other person to learn from me if they want, but will do my best to curtail or avoid interactions where I have nothing to gain or give.

 

[RaptorWizard]

"INTJs do not deal with things in a logical way, going into the intellectual process of elucidation. They just catch an intuition, going round and round amplifying it, so that in the end we get a complete picture, but by intuitive means, not by logical means." - C.G. Jung, 1937

"But instinct is something which transcends knowledge. We have, undoubtedly, certain finer fibers that enable us to perceive truths when logical deduction, or any other willful effort of the brain, is futile. Back in the deep recesses of the brain was the solution, but I could net yet give it outward expression. As I uttered these inspiring words the idea came like a flash of lightning and in an instant the truth was revealed. A thousand secrets of nature which I might have stumbled upon accidentally, I would have given for that one which I had wrested from her against all odds and at the peril of my existence. The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power." ~ Nikola Tesla (INTJ)

Explain to me how INTJ's can do this

 

[Evo]

Not at all, if the INTJ is interested in self-development. Other people, even (perhaps especially) those who hate him/her, can provide valuable input that helps the INTJ see him/herself more clearly. Any changes made as a result, however, are not to please the other person, but rather to bring the INTJ closer to his/her own standards.

I can understand this, because self-development is a big priority to me.

But I think I personally have a different reason as to why I do it now. Emphasis on the word now. I used to think it was soley for myself until I learned that we are all one. And if you don't beleive that we're all one then that's exactly where your desire stops and my desire begins (which is kool either way, not saying it's wrong or anything. Just defining the difference.)

I just think that I do all this stuff to be a better person and what is it all for if not to be able to be accepted by myself AND others...I think they're both equally important, cause my ideal world involves a sense of community where I'm allowed to be who I am and others are too, without a sense of rejection.

Yes to the highlighted. If they brought worthwhile results, I would have far more patience with them. Not everyone has something to offer me at the present time, any more than I might have something to offer them. And I don't need to keep repeating the same type of unpleasant interaction to learn the lesson it already might have provided the first few times. Enough is enough.

Yea, again I think this is where I just don't fundamentally agree. I think that I have something to offer everyone. I also think everyone has something to offer me. I am learning and experiencing all day long. Good and bad things. They both present ways to learn. And if we actually learn from problems, they go away. Meaning if we stop resisting the negative, it eventually fades away.

Socializing is NOT necessary for a business transaction, and you can avoid it without making anyone "feel like crap". How? Just be courteous, transact your business, and move on. The rules say you do your job, earn your money, pay your way, do no harm, and help out when you can. None of this requires socializing either.

The thing is, that people with Feeling functions first... it IS a requirement.

Being courteous is a social rule. We have to learn how to act in society. For some, it's just easier and more natural and PREFERRED.

I would like to learn something from each personal interaction, or even allow the other person to learn from me if they want, but will do my best to curtail or avoid interactions where I have nothing to gain or give.

Yea, that all depends then on what you define as "something to gain" I guess.

My goal is expand my consciousness, and to gain knowledge and experience. I can do that talking to people I don't like cause I can practice "being aware" and trying new things to see what works...

I guess it's not for everyone.

 

[highlander]

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION],

I choose to be solo in life because it's easier for me, not because I'm butthurt or too prideful to ask for help. As a socially orientated person you find people enlivening. I find them draining in every possible way. People take more from me than they ever give quite honestly. To watch another person make a hash of a job I can do blindfolded is painful and it takes more time and energy on my part to clean up after them than to just get the job done properly in the first place.

I work in a people job and meet approx 300 new people a day. I took this job with the idea of developing my people skills and understanding others more. It was a test to see if all that 'you've gotta work with others' advice was really worthwhile. In 6 years of doing this I think I have a pretty good sample set to go from. From what I've experienced most people....

- Dump their issues on you and try to make them your issues.
- Fail to plan or provide for themselves and try to make that your issue.
- Piss and moan like a 5yr old regardless of how old they really are as soon as they don't get their way.
- Spend prodigious amounts of time trying to take chips off the self esteem of everyone around them so they can feel better about themselves.
- Recruit others to their cause so they can oust whomever they see as an obstacle to getting their way.
- Put enormous energy into excuses for why they cannot or should not be doing something.
- Spend more time doing the above than getting anything useful done.

I'm actually quite successful at this job, but I dont enjoy it. And I have never had such a low view of humanity as I have now. I have come to the conclusion that in the main my desire to be solo was a good choice and that I am not missing out. In my job the dominant personaity type is a socially orientated, empathic person. And on the whole I find these people put more time and energy into their personal hatreds and petty issues than in getting the job they are paid to do, done. I find it annoying and counter productive.

Perhaps it would be helpful for society to accept that the solo person isn't a social reject in need of rehabilitation but that it can be a viable personal choice for people who do not receive much benefit from other people's company. I spend all day being diplomatic and understanding and coaxing goodwill out of reluctant individuals. I'm capable of being perfectly lovely and quite charming when it suits me. But I dont have to on here, what I project here is the frustrated and exhausted side of me venting. And this is how I feel most days I've had to endure an overload of other people.

Most people?? That's a very negative view of humanity indeed.

I'd be curious to hear if there are any INTJs who aren't also e5 who have this thing with needing independence going on.

Yes. I have always had a very strong need for independence. For example, I have incredible memories of my first semester of college, mostly because I had freedom and independence. I also have very good memories of my first couple of years being employed and on my own, when I had absolutely nothing. To be on my own, self sufficient financially and living in my own place was thrilling (though I didn't like living alone the first year; I've always preferred having others around).

 

[Coriolis]

I just think that I do all this stuff to be a better person and what is it all for if not to be able to be accepted by myself AND others...I think they're both equally important, cause my ideal world involves a sense of community where I'm allowed to be who I am and others are too, without a sense of rejection.

If I have to change how I operate substantially, however, I am no longer being who I am, but rather trying to be who others want me to be.

Yea, again I think this is where I just don't fundamentally agree. I think that I have something to offer everyone. I also think everyone has something to offer me. I am learning and experiencing all day long. Good and bad things. They both present ways to learn. And if we actually learn from problems, they go away. Meaning if we stop resisting the negative, it eventually fades away.

I probably have something to offer everyone, too, but most people won't realize or accept that. Unless I am going to force the issue, that means there is little value to our continued interaction. I would prefer to move on to someone I really can help, or learn from.

Being courteous is a social rule. We have to learn how to act in society. For some, it's just easier and more natural and PREFERRED.

Yes and no. Some people, perhaps the feelers you referenced, see courtesy as including a substantial amount of interpersonal give and take. To me that is not courtesy, it is intrusive, inefficient, even nosy. To me, courtesy involves respecting boundaries, avoiding insults, speaking plainly, and getting what you want without it being at someone else's expense.

 

[ceecee]

My goal is expand my consciousness, and to gain knowledge and experience. I can do that talking to people I don't like cause I can practice "being aware" and trying new things to see what works...

I guess it's not for everyone.

I can probably count on one hand how many times I have tried or learned a new thing by talking to people (like or not) or even being around other people. Even if others are present, I still learn alone. I always do, I always will. You lead with feeling functions, I get that. I don't. Leading with feeling functions would get in the way of actually seeing what I'm looking at, why I'm learning or doing, even if it's another person. I'm in no way saying feeling is completely removed but it's not the primary, no matter what the situation.

 

[tinker683]

I don't hate them!!!

....but they can be intimidating.

I have a romantic fantasy of catching the eye of a INTJ female. It would probably wind up being a very difficult relationship....but there is something very endearing about them

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Yes. I have always had a very strong need for independence. For example, I have incredible memories of my first semester of college, mostly because I had freedom and independence. I also have very good memories of my first couple of years being employed and on my own, when I had absolutely nothing. To be on my own, self sufficient financially and living in my own place was thrilling (though I didn't like living alone the first year; I've always preferred having others around).

I probably should have more specific, or quoted to give that a context. I'd noticed the exchange between Amargith and Coriolis/WhoCares, and it made me wonder if INTJs who aren't e5 felt as strongly about it as Coriolis and WhoCares. (For example.)

[Because of course there's going to be a need for independence.]

 

[highlander]

What the fuck happened to my post (#413) where I mentioned [MENTION=20035]anticlimatic[/MENTION]?

I probably should have more specific, or quoted to give that a context. I'd noticed the exchange between Amargith and Coriolis/WhoCares, and it made me wonder if INTJs who aren't e5 felt as strongly about it as Coriolis and WhoCares. (For example.)

[Because of course there's going to be a need for independence.]

Oh no. I'm not like that at all. I like developing one on one connections with people. It's a big part of who I am. (if that's what you mean).

 

[RaptorWizard]

I don't hate them!!!

....but they can be intimidating.

I have a romantic fantasy of catching the eye of a INTJ female. It would probably wind up being a very difficult relationship....but there is something very endearing about them

INTJ women are to independent and intense for my taste. I have a preference for the deep and reflective INTP women instead!

My favorite INTP girls on this forum are [MENTION=14840]palm[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5583]Eruca[/MENTION]!