[INTJ] Why do people hate INTJs?

[Zarathustra]

^ wonder if that will be censored too...

 

[Evo]

This is the essence of communication. Interestingly, it isn't even about "making oneself understood", but rather about listening. If you listen well, you make it much easier for others to listen to you. This listening is one of those "Fi lessons" that INTJs need to learn.

Can you elaborate?

 

[uumlau]

Can you elaborate?

One of the ironies of human communication is that it is almost impossible to tell people what you think without listening to what they have to say, first. All conversations require listening. If people just repeat the same things at each other (perhaps using different words each time) there is no conversation. As my grandmother put it, "An argument is two people sharing their ignorance." The only way to have a conversation is to really listen to what the other person has to say. It might be true, it might be false, it might be confused, it might have some insights in certain degrees, while demonstrating ignorance in others.

Via listening, you learn what it is that you might need to say in order to convey your real point. Via listening, you try to learn from a discussion, rather than "win" an argument. Via listening, and demonstrating that you hear the other person's point of view, they will tend to pay you the same courtesy and listen to you.

According to Dario Nardi, the Fi types, especially Fi doms, are the best at listening. Thus, to "develop Fi", learn to listen.

Edited to add:
W/r to prior comments about "humility" and the like, listening is the path for Te types to get there.

 

[RaptorWizard]

There's an argument which could be constructed, with topics such as The Horrors of Public Education, where listening too much may limit expansion, whether it's within the mind or the world. (I don't expect anyone to browse that entire link, but I'm covering the main points below):

1. When we follow the herd, we may stop thinking for ourselves, and develop worldviews largely similar to other members within the herd. This isn't good for innovation, and limits the search for new horizons.
2. Some things others present to us may be misleading, or take our focus away from the higher vantage points of awareness, and down into the cages of conformity.
3. Just because the old precedents may appear to work doesn't mean that they can't be altered to allow for new and improved developments.
4. Taking in too much information all at once rather than withdrawing into the mind can create interference, disrupting the intake of what we actually need to know, or at least what we want to know.
5. Many people who command others don't do it for the other person's knowledge and well-being, but rather to argue for their own advantages.

The list could go on much longer than that, but the idea of arguing against external feedback in order to get more feedback is still awesome I think!

So probably, open-mindedness consists not only in listening to other points of view, but in questioning them as well, among other things. Through this process, we can let of go of pieces which aren't good for our constructions, and integrate the pieces that are good to better build up towards more perfected models.

It would be interesting if what I described above has connections with Typology, although I'm not experienced nor insightful enough yet to see patterns of these sorts.

 

[anticlimatic]

^^ ^^^ I dealt with this guy in four lines, but someone , as yet unnamed, decided to delete it, and not say a word about it, even when asked.

That's a whole lot of wasted breath for:

1) clearly you're only describing shitty people, shitty aspects of people, or your shitty interpretations of people, who (might) happen to be INTJ (albeit in a rather funny, and even partially accurate kinda way)

and

2) most everything you're saying here is clearly derived from little more than your own shadow SFJ judgments, and is thus not even close to objective (hence partial)

But hey, if you want to unnecessarily delete a non-hostile post, under the inaccurate judgment that it is, in order to waste your breath, you're the mod.

I'm with ya, bother. Damn the man!!

 

[anticlimatic]

Personally, I don't need other people to "understand me" or "understand INTJs" in general. I believe highlander is bringing up the point about your lack of understanding of INTJs is that while many of your observations are apt, there are key aspects to them that, in our eyes, are untrue or otherwise incomplete.

Te vs Fi again, defaulting to whichever makes you seem superior to others, because that's always the one goal that transcends the dueling judging functions. Te needs people to understand you, because that's how things get accomplished-- while Fi could care less. Everyone is conflicted internally to some degree, but I wonder if it's because your judging functions are so close together that you're able to leap-frog so easily from one to the other, depending on the overreaching goal (power). Note I'm not disagreeing with you, I think you just have a misunderstanding on how causality is assigned to the functions regarding action; particularly the distinction between judging and perceiving functions.

Interestingly, it isn't even about "making oneself understood", but rather about listening. If you listen well, you make it much easier for others to listen to you. This listening is one of those "Fi lessons" that INTJs need to learn.

By "listening" you mean..."perceiving?" Like, an INTJs dominant function (Ni)? Like, the thing they do already where they just stare at everyone like lab rats? I'm not sure more of the same is going to help towards generating likability, but doubtless you have to find your own way. I'd focus more on the judging aspect, and tweaking that. Especially since it's extroverted, Te more than any of the INTJ's other functions can help in recognizing the importance of other people, and therefore the importance of maintaining good terms with them.

No, it's not an "Fi reaction." It's Ni.

I think you confuse these two functions, somehow. You can't really blame much on Ni, since it's irrational, and doesn't really make any actual determinations-- it just manages an odd type of image-based network of concepts, which are linked to one another through obscure means (to contrast with Si, which manages a similar network-- only Si images are linked in an explicitly linear sensory means). Determinations on that data; yes, no; true, false; valid, invalid-- all come from the judging functions. Fi is based more on values than anything else, and therefore can't quite explain itself as well as Te can, when it comes to the decisions it makes-- therefore, a lot of the time, INTJs will make Fi-value based judgements, and then attempt to explain/justify them with Te. I'm sure they're not alone in this practice, but making a value judgement on me for failing to understand them (because "YOU'RE JUST WRONG"-- aka, Fi), and then following it up with a little bit of Te work to back it up (because in citation B, article 1, you falsely stated...) is just what y'all do. But clinging to the ad hominem that I don't understand INTJs, I'm sorry to say, isn't going to win you this one.

Not really. One of the things that you seem to miss about INTJs is that just as we tend to ignore most others' insults and "helpful social advice", we also tend to ignore compliments.

Fi ignores compliments. But Te is notorious for circle-jerks. Or maybe it's the other way around?

 

[Cupcakefrog]

They seem to be viewed as narcissistic elitists by many people of other types (or perhaps even by some within their own type), and I'm wondering how accurate these perceptions really may be, or why people actually develop them to begin with.

I just recently made my boyfriend take the test and he got INTJ. I didn't really believe it at first, he seems to be so full of emotion to me, and I thought he must be a more extraverted type too because he appears so confident.

But then again I dislike most extroverts. And I think I mistake his passionate opinions/sometimes severe anger for excessive emotion. And/or he shows more emotion to me because we have been so close for so many years. I realize now he is confident because he knows his value and doesn't worry too much what people think of him. He definitely isn't a social butterfly.

In a lot of ways he is very charismatic. But he rubs so many people the wrong way. Either they love him or deeply despise him. He doesn't sugar coat anything, and would never pretend to like someone who he just doesn't like. Which I think is admirable, no one likes insincerity, I especially dislike it. But he decides that he doesn't like most people rather quickly. I see this as a fault because I think a lot of people have redeeming qualities and that he should give more people the chance to show him that. But he thinks this is a waste of time. He'd rather filter out the people he deems off the bat to be fake or stupid. Or just plain boring. He can be rude to these people because he doesn't care what they think. It bums a lot of my friends out, and people don't understand how I can be with him because I'm so sensitive and considerate to everyone. I don't think I'm a fake person at all, but I do always try to be cordial when I can, and this actually bothers him.

However, a lot of my friends have seen over time that he is incredibly loyal, cares deeply for me, and often times isn't trying to hurt anyone, just insists on telling it like it is.

 

[anticlimatic]

I just recently made my boyfriend take the test and he got INTJ.

Take that determination with a grain of salt. On most of those tests, INTJ is the result you get if you answer each question "correctly."

Explained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSNTdSSLauQ

 

[Cupcakefrog]

Take that determination with a grain of salt. On most of those tests, INTJ is the result you get if you answer each question "correctly."

Explained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSNTdSSLauQ

Yeah, good point, and I'm not completely convinced... But at the same time, it would explain a lot of the problems in our relationship that used to puzzle me...

 

[Ginkgo]

Z, I don't give a shit what you were "looking forward to," and just once it would be great if you didn't post the predictable: "Stop projecting, dude" when you have nothing relevant to offer.
Get some new material and stop banging your own drum.

Don't forget the possibility that you should stop projecting.

 

[Jaguar]

Don't forget the possibility that you should stop projecting.

Turn on the bathroom light.

 

[RaptorWizard]

The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation.

^ The guy who wrote that above article in the conclusion for his (http://montalk.net/about/87/truth-analysis) page has a process that sounds very INTJ to me - do you folks think that I'm right?

 

[Coriolis]

By "listening" you mean..."perceiving?" Like, an INTJs dominant function (Ni)? Like, the thing they do already where they just stare at everyone like lab rats? I'm not sure more of the same is going to help towards generating likability, but doubtless you have to find your own way. I'd focus more on the judging aspect, and tweaking that. Especially since it's extroverted, Te more than any of the INTJ's other functions can help in recognizing the importance of other people, and therefore the importance of maintaining good terms with them:

Not a bad analogy. A good scientist will be very attentive and take care to observe what is actually presented - no more, no less. There is no place for wishful thinking, projection, or ignoring data points just because they "don't fit the theory". Listening with a similar absence of preconceptions and willingness to consider whatever comes is a good start, as is making additional "observations" if the initial data don't seem to fit.

 

[Evo]

Fi ignores compliments. But Te is notorious for circle-jerks. Or maybe it's the other way around?

Other way around.

 

[Ginkgo]

Turn on the bathroom light.

I can see in the dark.

ps- You don't have any lightbulbs.

 

[Jaguar]

I can see in the dark.

Nah, it's time to turn on the lights.

This is the first time we've conversed in well over a year, and I'm only going to say this one time - knock off all the attempts at communicating with me, all of them. That includes: the fake rep comments, the trolling through the @mention notification system, and any other bullshit you can dream up. My PMs are blocked to the public because of your antics. I want nothing to do with you - get it through your head. No one in this forum should have to put up with your obsessive bullshit for this long. I thought you'd knock it off on your own, but apparently ignoring you has only made your behavior worse. If you won't get over it, I'll get a mod to make you get over it.

Are we clear?

 

[anticlimatic]

Nah, it's time to turn on the lights.

This is the first time we've conversed in well over a year, and I'm only going to say this one time - knock off all the attempts at communicating with me, all of them. That includes: the fake rep comments, the trolling through the @mention notification system, and any other bullshit you can dream up. My PMs are blocked to the public because of your antics. I want nothing to do with you - get it through your head. No one in this forum should have to put up with your obsessive bullshit for this long. I thought you'd knock it off on your own, but apparently ignoring you has only made your behavior worse. If you won't get over it, I'll get a mod to make you get over it.

Are we clear?

Why are INTJs always the first to cry to mommy when someone bothers them? I guess it beats gnashing your teeth in frustration for hours, hatching diabolical plots you're not going to follow through on...

 

[Mal12345]

Nah, it's time to turn on the lights.

This is the first time we've conversed in well over a year, and I'm only going to say this one time - knock off all the attempts at communicating with me, all of them. That includes: the fake rep comments, the trolling through the @mention notification system, and any other bullshit you can dream up. My PMs are blocked to the public because of your antics. I want nothing to do with you - get it through your head. No one in this forum should have to put up with your obsessive bullshit for this long. I thought you'd knock it off on your own, but apparently ignoring you has only made your behavior worse. If you won't get over it, I'll get a mod to make you get over it.

Are we clear?

PMs are blocked by default and can't be unblocked.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Why are INTJs always the first to cry to mommy when someone bothers them? I guess it beats gnashing your teeth in frustration for hours, hatching diabolical plots you're not going to follow through on...

[MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION] once told me that Jaguar is an ENTJ. He's quite a bit more blunt it seems even then the INTJs, so maybe it fits. Still, that's just what Ginkgo said, and I don't know Jaguar well enough.

 

[Mal12345]

[MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION] once told me that Jaguar is an ENTJ. He's quite a bit more blunt it seems even then the INTJs, so maybe it fits. Still, that's just what Ginkgo said, and I don't know Jaguar well enough.

Jag is an ESTJ.