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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have rarely been disappointed in the results, online or IRL. I won't presume to speak for my conversation partners, though.


    This is another reason why you should just take my statements in a discussion at face value. Whether or not I really agree with the perspective I am defending, you should just address my arguments for what they are. If you think I'm playing devil's advocate or just yanking your chain, you can challenge me on this. Depending on the circumstances, I will either give you a candid and serious answer, or deflect the challenge in a way that leaves you none the wiser unless you know me well, and perhaps even supports the effect I am trying to create.
    Playing devil's advocate is one thing, which I have reservations about anyone claiming, but what I have highlighted is a different story altogether.

    Playing devil's advocate is something which is claimed, I have seen, when posters make sincere posts, or get sick of how certain opinions are represented, but then panick about popularity or group dynamics or even whether an unpopular opinion is going to get them banned.

    Playing some sort of game, posting to try and create effects, is something different and likely to result, just speaking for myself, in my choosing to put someone on ignore or at least reconsidering what worth there may be in discussing anything with them. If its a game to them then there's not any point in discussing anything with them.

    There are forum members who spend time, a lot of time as it happens, on the social games and the threads they post are about chalking up members bug bears to see who can be provoked into bannable behaviour. Sometimes its more than simply "we're all mates, lets get rid of anyone outside our social circle", which seems like a stupid strategy since it will involve alienating or excluding any "new blood" from the forum.

    Sometimes there's an agenda about excluding opinions they dont like, in and of itself that's illustrative because the whole performance is done with "open mindedness", "tolerance" or something like it as a flag of convenience.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  2. #202
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Playing devil's advocate is one thing, which I have reservations about anyone claiming, but what I have highlighted is a different story altogether.

    Playing devil's advocate is something which is claimed, I have seen, when posters make sincere posts, or get sick of how certain opinions are represented, but then panick about popularity or group dynamics or even whether an unpopular opinion is going to get them banned.

    Playing some sort of game, posting to try and create effects, is something different and likely to result, just speaking for myself, in my choosing to put someone on ignore or at least reconsidering what worth there may be in discussing anything with them. If its a game to them then there's not any point in discussing anything with them.

    There are forum members who spend time, a lot of time as it happens, on the social games and the threads they post are about chalking up members bug bears to see who can be provoked into bannable behaviour. Sometimes its more than simply "we're all mates, lets get rid of anyone outside our social circle", which seems like a stupid strategy since it will involve alienating or excluding any "new blood" from the forum.

    Sometimes there's an agenda about excluding opinions they dont like, in and of itself that's illustrative because the whole performance is done with "open mindedness", "tolerance" or something like it as a flag of convenience.
    When I am playing devil's advocate, whether I admit it or not, the purpose is always to explore the issue more fully. If people are generally agreeing with me, this won't happen in the same way. I will take the opposite position to stimulate the arguments on both sides, so we all get a fuller picture of the issue.

    When I speak of "the effect I am trying to create", it is never to provoke bannable behavior, or make someone look foolish, or deflect negative reactions to an unpopular opinion (those really don't bother me at all). It is usually to make a point to the other person that I cannot make by direct argument. It is serious, and not a game (though it can be amusing at times). Sometimes I will even argue for the same side as the other person, but in a way that takes the position to an extreme so they end up telling me I am going too far with it. Then I see what the limits of their position are, and often get them to expose their own internal contradictions in the process. I do less of this online because (1) there is less need; and (2) I don't feel I can control the discussion as well as I can in person with the instant feedback of a face-to-face discussion,
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    When I am playing devil's advocate, whether I admit it or not, the purpose is always to explore the issue more fully. If people are generally agreeing with me, this won't happen in the same way. I will take the opposite position to stimulate the arguments on both sides, so we all get a fuller picture of the issue.
    I'll be honest, I've not seen a lot of that, I've been told about the other, which I mentioned, by others who've been following threads that I've ignored.

    When I speak of "the effect I am trying to create", it is never to provoke bannable behavior, or make someone look foolish, or deflect negative reactions to an unpopular opinion (those really don't bother me at all). It is usually to make a point to the other person that I cannot make by direct argument. It is serious, and not a game (though it can be amusing at times). Sometimes I will even argue for the same side as the other person, but in a way that takes the position to an extreme so they end up telling me I am going too far with it. Then I see what the limits of their position are, and often get them to expose their own internal contradictions in the process. I do less of this online because (1) there is less need; and (2) I don't feel I can control the discussion as well as I can in person with the instant feedback of a face-to-face discussion,
    Hmm, yeah, I'm not sure this is possible in online discussion, I'm unconvinced of it as a strategy generally.

    It makes me think of Schumpeter's rules for winning arguments, there are people who read up on that source and seek ot apply it but the work itself was supposed to be highlighting the poverty of discussion per se and the way in which it had descended into manipulation, competition, egotism.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  4. #204
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have rarely been disappointed in the results, online or IRL. I won't presume to speak for my conversation partners, though.
    I see what you mean. Thank you.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I see what you mean. Thank you.
    No, you don't see what it means, and you probably never will. You wouldn't survive a second on the INTJ forum!

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    No, you don't see what it means, and you probably never will. You wouldn't survive a second on the INTJ forum!
    The INTJ forum is easy to survive on. But, then, I R the Neffpea.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    The INTJ forum is easy to survive on. But, then, I R the Neffpea.
    Actually, I just made that idiot comment to jumpstart this htread back up.

    But seriously, INTP forum is a hell of a lot worse; they banned me after 20 minutes!

    It's a terrible feeling, being rejected and shunned by your own kind.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Actually, I just made that idiot comment to jumpstart this htread back up.

    But seriously, INTP forum is a hell of a lot worse; they banned me after 20 minutes!

    It's a terrible feeling, being rejected and shunned by your own kind.
    the INTP forum IS worse because it is... WAIT FOR IT OMG SURPRISE.... infested with the devil scourge type of the world: INTPs in the shape of pasty white men.

  9. #209
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    Yes, on average INTJs are better people than INTPs, though the best of the INTPs could serve the rest of the INTJs a fresh loss and and take them back to school!

  10. #210
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    You weren't an INTP when you started this thread.

    You're still not.

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