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  1. #161
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Oh, I agree that expressions can lie. That is why I put the two qualifiers "candid" and "micro". Candid is the expression people have when they don't think anyone is looking, and a micr-expression is something I learned about recently from some research done by a sociologist, I believe. There are fleeting, split-second expressions that come across people's faces that reveal how they are actually feeling. These can come intermittedly between false expressions. People can learn to perceive these, and some people may have a natural aptitude to see them, but they are often hidden from typical social interactions.
    Interesting. Thanks for clarifying

    I try save my candid expressions for when I'm alone now.

    But this micro-expression stuff, seems to be involuntary.

    I think someone would have to care enough to see them though, tbh. So again only if you're talking to people close to you. Or maybe an Fe dom/aux (but they don't seem to say anything)

    I find that most people that I talk to don't seem to care about the information that is being discussed. Let alone the small amounts of involuntary responses others have.

    I'm surrounded by Fi -doms, I think they're just listening to tone and once in a while looking for a clue from my facial expressions...

    But I agree with you that if someone were to see them...they don't lie. I just don't think people care that much.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
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  2. #162
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    I totes read that as candid fecal expression.

  3. #163
    lurking Rasofy's Avatar
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    Because they are stubborn in an asocial way, and don't make much effort to disguise it.

    unlike FJs, they won't bother putting on a pleasant facade;
    unlike STJs, they won't stick to conventional social values;
    unlike ENTJs, they will constantly leave people guessing what they are really thinking. ()
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  4. #164
    The Senate Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Oh, I agree that expressions can lie. That is why I put the two qualifiers "candid" and "micro". Candid is the expression people have when they don't think anyone is looking, and a micr-expression is something I learned about recently from some research done by a sociologist, I believe. There are fleeting, split-second expressions that come across people's faces that reveal how they are actually feeling. These can come intermittedly between false expressions. People can learn to perceive these, and some people may have a natural aptitude to see them, but they are often hidden from typical social interactions.
    What about the eyes turned up at the corners when smiling? Apparently that's much harder to fake than just turning the mouth upwards. Is that a candid expression, a micro-expression, or something else entirely?
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  5. #165
    The Senate Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I've been questioning this aspect of Ni-doms also. There are some who make their meaning almost incomprehensible and others who are extremely clear. I guess it could be the result of Ni being a function that does not set up the clear, precise, linguistic structures that Ti and Fi can, so some work even harder to be clear?

    I work especially hard to make my meaning clear when I am attempting to communicate, although my word choices are still not as precise as Ti and Fi people. I find that is why I spend a lot of time thinking and processing, and I often don't attempt to verbalize those aspecting of cognition that are too far away from language.

    I've known a few Ni-dom people who speak in almost incomprehensible terms, and I don't know what to make of it. To be direct, I almost find it to be a socially driven use of language that deliberately places a wall. This might be an effort to form a mystique that places one above others. That can happen in the arts as well. It can also be the result of a highly personal perspective that reinvents a sense of definition, concepts, and metaphor. I'd be curious to spend enough time to analyze some of these folks use of language to see if it is consistent or not. I've worked with autistic individuals who use a purely metaphorical use of language that is incomprehensible if you are not familiar with their internal, personal associations of ideas.

    For myself, Ni feels ethereal and like a cloud. It is not a specific, clear distortion of concepts, but abstract, intangible. To show a highly personal, illogical example of it, Our two new puppies have personalities and interactions nearly identical to the two that passed away recently. Some people could be tempted to take on a sense of their spirits being reincarnated or something like that. My mind is more readily brought to the Buddhist concepts of "not the same and not different". It is like scooping a handful of water from the ocean, watching it drain away, and then scooping up the next handful. If there is a connection I would be more inclined to entertain the idea that it is the result of time being an illusion, of separateness being an illusion. I feel as though it is Ni that helps me feel comfortable with processing data that is speculative, abstract, ethereal, intangible, impossible to pin down or even define.

    Sometimes when I read the incomprehensible, highly personalized use of language, it doesn't always feel abstract, but as a very specific, concrete distortion from the external. It comes down to me wondering if that too is an expression of the sense of fuzzy reality, or if it is a completely different way of processing. It also makes me wonder if it is deliberate and socially driven, or something that is so natural and imbedded in the person that it would take great effort to change.

    But you can articulate that into something that's sort of graspable by someone else. It's a little "out there" maybe, but if I pause for a moment, I can see how it works. I just have to use a different lens. I think the ability to do this is dependent on how comfortable/skilled a Ni dom is with their Thinking function, whether it's introverted or extraverted. INFJs have a Thinking function too.

    But yes, some Ni doms seem equally incomprehensible to me that way, but the interesting thing to me is that they tend to be INTJs, not INFJs. Perhaps as an introverted function, the thinking function of an INFJ is easier to access.

    So, INTJs I can't understand is maybe another evil of the world I blame on Introverted Feeling, like traffic jams, mosquitoes and peanut butter.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  6. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    There's always an element that urges discovery. Particularly so in internet posting. There's always an element of "can you see this, and this, and the form behind this...?" Sometimes it's used for entertainment. Actually, all the time it's used for entertainment. Finding hidden forms is exciting. So, yeah, being literal is for rubes, and INTPs.
    I notice this aspect in most of the INTJs I know; obfuscatory dialogue with undertones of circle-jerk yearning, something whose delivery I attribute to dominant Ni, and motivation I attribute to tert Fi. It's like on a deep level they want synchronization with others, but they want it to be special, and out of the prying eyes of people who think differently. There's a mirror gazing element of caring more about their own personal feelings on something than the actual objective validity of them, and a large amount of the manufactured confusion is a defense mechanism-- because if the only people who understand what they're saying are also drinkers of the same kool-aid, they're much less likely to be challenged on the deep underlying opinions behind them, and tert Fi absolutely abhors being challenged. When you say you "do it for entertainment," that's a reflection on enjoyment obtained from accomplishing the opposite of challenging that tert Fi-- and setting up the type of Ni riddles for others that INTJs themselves enjoy.

    INTPs, on the other hand, with their delusions of objective craftsmanship, take very extreme and pedantic measures to craft their theories in such a way so that even a child can at least understand what they are trying to say, from top to bottom. This is also a defense mechanism, but from the other way around-- it's a way of defending the validity of an idea by literally 'describing it into life,' which while appreciated can get a little overwhelming depending on how much detail is getting thrown into it.

    I can accept at face value the words INTJs use when they're hiding their motives, the same way I can accept and enjoy poetry whose underlying meaning I don't quite understand, but I generally prefer effective communication on any particular concept, assign individual responsibility for such, and eventually lose interest in the conversation if it doesn't happen. I don't particularly take any pleasure, or waste any time, trying to discover points that are deliberately hidden. But words can be pretty, regardless.

    At the end of the day I think it really just boils down to treating others the way we ourselves want to be treated, and I can find no objective fault in that principal.

  7. #167

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    I think its funny if people really think this way, MBTI hasnt exactly shown forth as completely reliable and uncontested in terms of undisputed accuracy, it makes as much sense as a result to have prejudice based upon this criteria as race, sex, sectarian affiliations or anything like that.
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire

    A kind thought is the hope of the world - Anon

  8. #168
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    not quite - the accumulation of dots happens through the mental registration of those dots (Se).
    Not the way I see them. They are all there whether someone chooses to take note of them or not. Sort of like "one man's trash is another man's treasure".

    use in a way it's kind of true but not quite but also it actually is[/I]" half-sarcasm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's.. interesting.
    1. you interpret other functions as failed attempts at Ni?
    2. you attribute Ni failures to those functions?
    No. If you think of the functions as processes, each process produces different output from those same starting materials. Some of the processes don't make very constructive use of the dots, much as some organisms cannot digest certain foods very well. It's not so much a failed attempt, as a mismatch or simply another way to do something (not as interesting or useful) with the same raw materials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    btw - in regards to the OP - i have known far more INTJs that have earned my respect a dozen times over then INTJs i disliked... actually probably only one or two of the later.
    From the INTJ side, I must admit I get very few negative reactions. Of course I circulate primarily among people likely to appreciate my type. On the other hand, it is possible that lot of people hate me, too, but are too polite to say anything, or just cannot be bothered.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Ok.... I had not considered this... that being said, there is something that does not compute for me.

    In another thread, you stated that you dislike people reading things into your words at not taking them at face value. I am sorry, but I cannot reconcile that with this. We're supposed to take your words at face value, except for when you're not?

    Since INTJs tend to be blunt and not beat around the bush, this means I actually do take their words at face value, unlike with some other types. This means that when they argue for something that is harmful or false, I also take this at face value. I have no way to separate the wheat from the chaff, at least in a text-only environement. Perhaps, in person, their would be things I could use.
    I see your confusion. I made the statement about taking my words at face value in the context of an earlier part of the discussion focused on emotional content, without explicitly stating what limits that imposed. (See - you seem to want an explanation, and I don't mind providing it. I realize what I said not just seems but is contradictory without this qualifier.) What I meant is that one should never let the dubious input of nonverbal cues override what I say. If I tell you "I don't mind if you borrow my car", I mean it and will stand by it, however unhappy or irked I might seem. Odds are, what you are perceiving as unhappiness or irritation has nothing to do with you and your request. If I really do mind, I will tell you so.

    As for arguing a point I don't actually espouse, on one level this might be considered an extended version of sarcasm. As you say, INTJs are known for being blunt and saying what we mean, but we also are known for sarcasm, in which we are saying often the opposite. On another level, you can STILL take what I say at face value in this situation, because if you listen closely, you will never hear me say I actually believe it. It is just a debate at that point, weighing your facts and reasoning against mine. When I do this, it isn't always to teach someone a lesson. Sometimes it is to help me learn by playing devil's advocate. If someone is making a reasonable case for something I do agree with, I will do my best to poke holes in their argument to see how they defend it; to see whether they do it the way I would, or have other perspectives that help me understand (and perhaps defend) it later. At that point, though, it is not at all about emotions, and not much about values either.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    This is also the issue I have with being told to "trust" their Ni statements when they are not backed up by anything more than pieces of evidence with no connective tissue. No, I don't see it. And I'm not going to accept any of it just because you said so. I cannot separate the wheat from the chaff and determine which things are off the wall crazy (especially if they're thrown in alongside Holocaust denial) and which things are of value and are worth intellectual consideration. People say dumb shit all the time... I don't say any reason to act as though it as worth of consideration as something insightful.
    Again, you are mixing two different circumstances. I don't expect people to trust me/my Ni when we are just having a discussion. That request only comes into play when a decision needs to be made, and we don't have the time or resources to gather the evidence it would take to provide an ironclad justification. I feel comfortable asking for this trust, and people usually give it to me, because I have a good track record. I won't ask people to trust my Ni in areas where I assign it an inadequate confidence level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    to be fair, i've never actually seen @Coriolis do that... each and every time i've conversed with her or was in the same thread as her she has given very clear explanations and reasoning.

    (also if i remember correctly i think she's married to an INTP, so i am guessing she is comfortable side by side with Ti reasoning).
    You don't see me do it here for the reason I explained above: we aren't making pressing or important decisions here, just chatting, kicking around ideas. My INTP, my friends, and my colleagues, however, have all experienced my saying "just trust me on this". They usually go along, and are pleased with the results.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #169
    The Senate Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    interestingly enough, dario nardi's research observes that generally speaking, Ni doms seem to be the exception to the notion of practice makes perfect (in contrast with Si doms, for whom practice really does make perfect):

    (not sure if timed links work here - if it doesn't jump to 13 minutes in)


    ofcourse this is measured by practicing in relations to specific sorts of problems - that's not to say that Ni doms don't on some level practice Ni as a whole each time they are presented with a new problem (i'll expand on that bellow) - but Ni seems to not necessarily improve by practice so much as improve by the accumulation of connectable knowledge to the problem.

    the reason might be that unlike judging functions, much of the attributes we associate with the perception functions aren't quite related to specific areas in the brain so much as the general state from which the brain functions best (Se in the "bunny hop" mode, Ne in the "Christmas tree" mode, Ni in "the flow" mode, and please can someone come up with better names for this shit?), so the act of learning by practice - reinforced wiring in any particular area - isn't going to make the general state more easily accessible (this holds true to Si - even if improving via practice works for them to better grasp a type of problem, it isn't necessarily going to improve their general Si, or mine for that matter)... as a result, improving the abilities we associate with our perception functions isn't a matter of using them more so much as it is a matter of arming them with the mental resources they can best utilize.
    Finally watched the video. Not bad for astrology-level pseusoscience that destroys our individuality and turns us all into the borg.

    I can extrapolate from this why it's a bad idea to ask an introverted intuitive for an immediate explanation. They need to clear their head like Sherlock Holmes and his pipe. I shall try to refrain from doing that in the future.

    Also, as someone who likes my Christmas Tree... how can I arm it with the mental resources my Christmas tree needs? I feel like I don't use it as much as I'd like. Any ideas?

    Also, with judging functions, is that associated with specific regions of the brain? I'm picturing something more verbal, maybe, for the extroverted judging functions.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I totes read that as candid fecal expression.
    You watched YWIR's Japanese sex commodities video, didn't you?

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