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  1. #141
    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    One thing often said about INTJs is that we have no problem making a good case for an opinion we don't actually hold. In fact, it can be good fun to do so, especially if we are speaking with someone who seems gullible, pretentious, obnoxious, or otherwise in need of being shown a thing or two. This is a good way to handle people like holocaust deniers. See also Amargith's comment below. She knows how it is done.
    Ok.... I had not considered this... that being said, there is something that does not compute for me.

    In another thread, you stated that you dislike people reading things into your words at not taking them at face value. I am sorry, but I cannot reconcile that with this. We're supposed to take your words at face value, except for when you're not?

    Since INTJs tend to be blunt and not beat around the bush, this means I actually do take their words at face value, unlike with some other types. This means that when they argue for something that is harmful or false, I also take this at face value. I have no way to separate the wheat from the chaff, at least in a text-only environement. Perhaps, in person, their would be things I could use.

    This is also the issue I have with being told to "trust" their Ni statements when they are not backed up by anything more than pieces of evidence with no connective tissue. No, I don't see it. And I'm not going to accept any of it just because you said so. I cannot separate the wheat from the chaff and determine which things are off the wall crazy (especially if they're thrown in alongside Holocaust denial) and which things are of value and are worth intellectual consideration. People say dumb shit all the time... I don't say any reason to act as though it as worth of consideration as something insightful.

    If I treated all of it as if it actually made sense and tried to unravel it, I'd have no framework at all, and would be flitting from one viewpoint to the other. All because someone farted out someone because they had a fight with their girlfriend or something. This is why I look for emotional content and what is going on underneath.

    I like intellectual stimulation, but I cannot afford to take anything anyone says ever as though it had equal weight, because then I'd be insane. My introverted thinking is not that fast, so doing that would paralyze me. To some extent, I already have this problem.
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    This is also the issue I have with being told to "trust" their Ni statements when they are not backed up by anything more than pieces of evidence with no connective tissue. No, I don't see it. And I'm not going to accept any of it just because you said so.
    to be fair, i've never actually seen @Coriolis do that... each and every time i've conversed with her or was in the same thread as her she has given very clear explanations and reasoning.

    (also if i remember correctly i think she's married to an INTP, so i am guessing she is comfortable side by side with Ti reasoning).

  3. #143
    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    to be fair, i've never actually seen @Coriolis do that... each and every time i've conversed with her or being in the same thread as her she has given very clear explanations and reasoning.
    I haven't seen her do that either, but there are definitely INTJs that do. I don't hate them though, it's just kind of eye-rolling for the most part.

    Still, she was explaining what was going on, and I was explaining why that annoys/confuses me. Even if she doesn't do it herself.
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


    Visit my Johari: http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  4. #144
    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Because sometimes they don't make any sense unless you do otherwise.
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


    Visit my Johari: http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  5. #145
    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I deny the Robot Holocaust.
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


    Visit my Johari: http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  6. #146
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    i realize the potential change of tone for the convo, but i have to ask...
    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I haven't seen her do that either, but there are definitely INTJs that do.
    who? stop right there - indulge me for a moment & ignore the one obvious answer - who else?

    i am asking honestly btw - i realize it looks like i am trying to make a point (and perhaps there is one to be made), but i am trying to think of anyone else, trying to list the INTJs in my head to find another one that does that, and my mind is drawing blank.

    i can easily think of INTJs who don't: i haven't talked much to @kalatch but he explained his reasoning (behind his reasoning) to the point that he practically simulates the experience of his reasoning. posts by @highlander & @Inari Love and conversations with @Time will often actually lead you in their process of back-treking and understanding how they reached a conclusion. posts by @Coriolis & @ceecee are so incredibly transparent & clear in their reasoning that i want to upload that part of their minds into an app the first opportunity (i'm calling it the bullshit slayer). @Within and @Zang can be quite out there in each in their own way, but just ask and you'll always get an incredibly strong construct of reasoning behind their ideas.

    as far as my personal experience in RL as well - there are very few INTJs in my life that i am aware of and only two closely (my father and a childhood-to-now friend), and none are like that... my friend had a short phase when we were 13 that can vaguely be interpreted as rejecting the need for explanations - but even then not quite (basically we delved into pop psychology and for awhile he took the concept of "rationalization" out of proportions) - doesn't really fits the bill, and it only lasted a couple of months (and you know... we were kids).

    now, obviously counter examples for the lack of a behavior don't contradict the behavior's existence or even it's potential associations... but for the sake of the argument, can you help me think of anyone? any INTJ from here or elsewhere or even an example of someone you know in RL? is there anyone i am missing?

  7. #147
    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i
    i can easily think of INTJs who don't: i haven't talked much to @kalatch but he explained his reasoning (behind his reasoning) to the point that he practically simulates the experience of his reasoning. posts by @highlander & @Inari Love and conversations with @Time will often actually lead you in their process of back-treking and understanding how they reached a conclusion. posts by @Coriolis & @ceecee are so incredibly transparent & clear in their reasoning that i want to upload that part of their minds into an app the first opportunity (i'm calling it the bullshit slayer). @Within and @Zang can be quite out there in each in their own way, but just ask and you'll always get an incredibly strong construct of reasoning behind their ideas.
    @Coriolis and @highlander I can follow without difficulty. Some of the others I can't really follow half the time. Maybe that's because you're dominant Intuition, so you pick up on what they are talking about. Perhaps if I were less lazy, I might be able to do the same. I'll try it next time with some of the others.

    I think that might be the difference. Your description of what the are talking about even sounds a little more intuitive.
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


    Visit my Johari: http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  8. #148
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i realize the potential change of tone for the convo, but i have to ask...
    Oh meh Gerd!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Not a change of tone!!! What will we do????

    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    @Coriolis and @highlander I can follow without difficulty. Some of the others I can't really follow half the time. Maybe that's because you're dominant Intuition, so you pick up on what they are talking about. Perhaps if I were less lazy, I might be able to do the same. I'll try it next time with some of the others.

    I think that might be the difference. Your description of what the are talking about even sounds a little more intuitive.
    right, ok, whether an explanation is clear or not is another matter and is probably subjective. i suppose what i am really asking is - beyond the obvious one - have there being any other INTJs who outright left you to "trust" their Ni statements when they are not backed up?

  10. #150
    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    right, ok, whether an explanation is clear or not is another matter and is probably subjective. i suppose what i am really asking is - beyond the obvious one - have there being any other INTJs who outright left you to "trust" their Ni statements when they are not backed up?
    No. But it seems like that is what is being asked of me. Perhaps I am wrong in that.
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


    Visit my Johari: http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

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